I've noticed in a few other posts that some believe is not acceptable to time laps while in HPDEs/Driving Schools. I am just looking for more insight into reasons for or against this practice. I see timing as a tool to refine and improve the line around the track. How would you know if a change it better or worse?? It's hard to equate the way something feels as to whether it is an improvement or not.

 

Several reasons:

1. HPDEs are schools. Not competitions. There is a different mindset involved. It is hard for a new driver to learn if he is worried about lap times. A students concentration should be on one thing only - driving his own car.

2. Danger level - driving for time infers driving at 100% every foot of every lap. Going 100% requires more concentration than most drivers can give. It also takes a greater toll on equipment. Both these together leads to more incidents. Most HPDE participants are out there for fun and learning - they expect to drive home in the cars they drove to the track. Racers do not have this luxury - if you cannot cut a check for the value of your racecar, you should not be racing it.

2a. Safety gear - due to the implications of #2, racing requires levels of safety gear that are totally inappropriate for a street car. The driver also requires more prep - this is why all successful sanctioning bodies have some form of competitin licensing.

3. Insurance. As soon as a lap is timed, 99.9% of insurance companies will not cover damage. See #2. Lack of insurance would cause HPDE participation to plummet.

 

To use a sports analogy, when you are practicing your tennis stroke, the purpose is to improve your technique. Once you are in a game, you will be pretty much unable (mentally or organizationally) to focus on that, since the purpose of the activity has switched to competing - trying to beat your opponent. This happens the instant you start keeping score.

On the track, as soon as you are timing a lap, your focus becomes going faster - NOT working on your skills. My coaching experience assures me that your behavior will change - ego gets involved, your ability to focus on technique goes out the window, you push harder, and are dramatically more likely to make a mistake.

Yes - the whole point is to go faster but speed is a secondary product of where you place the car on the track. That is, in turn, the result of things that you do with the car's controls. Interestingly, THAT is the product of your own body movements - your hands, feet and (most importantly in my book) your eyes.

Body movements -> Car control movements -> Car position -> Decreased lap times

You need to be focusing on step one and its influences on step two early in your training. If you are measuring step 4 (the long-term outcome variable), you will get what are called "mediating variables" - things that get between you and the desired result of your work. My personal opinion is that we often rush through the steps - I have heard instructors telling students where to put the car on the track, for example, rather than what to do with their hands and eyes to GET it there. This is a subtle but important distinction. Your instructors' jobs are to evaluate whether you are improving - they should have the skills to do that because, you are right, you won't.

Kirk

(Who likes to sound like he knows what he is talking about on a lot of subjects, but is getting a PhD in this stuff. If you blow off every other opinion I share here, please consider this one.)

 

Don't do it. End of discussion. Don't put the school at risk, or yourself. There are better ways to gauge your performance.

If you want a rough idea of how you are doing, check your shift points on straightaways. If you have to shift earlier, then your exit speed from the last series of turns is improving.

Warren

 

I totally agree, HPDE's are not competitions, and the mindset is very different than racing. However, when I participate in a HPDE, my focus and concentration is on the moment at hand, not at what my lap time will be. I too think the lap time is a valuable gauge as to whether my technique is improving, and whether I am taking the correct line around the track.

I have been to HPDE's that have been timed, and others that were not. Regardless, I never drive anywhere near 100% at a HPDE, and luckily I haven't met another HPDE participant that has a racer's attitude. To me, the extra second in lap time is not worth risking my car. Lowering my lap time is not my end goal, but rather, a gauge for my performance. If a HPDE driver considers a lower lap time to be the end goal, then I agree he has the wrong attitude.

I agree, nobody should drive beyond his car's capabilities or safety equipment, whether on the street, at a HPDE, or a race.

Due to recent changes in the industry, I am not aware of a single "standard" insurance company that has a written policy that does not explicitly deny coverage for any track related incidents, regardless of whether the event is timed. Whether an insurance company will stick to its guns and deny coverage based on the provisions in its policy is another matter. I'm only talking about what's written in black & white in the policy declaration. If anybody knows of a "standard" insurance company that has a policy that does not explicity deny coverage for any driving events that take place on a track, I'd love to know about it.

 

I disagree that timing is detrimental.

We've had a Hot Lap Timer in our Potomac Region PCA DEs while another region just to the north were against them. There was no greater incidence between the two. I would agree that they shouldn't be officially timed events due to the appearance of what the event is trying to accomplish but I see no harm in people making their own decision to time themselves.

 

Many good points that I appreciate and understand how they can relate to in-car real-time lapping. Do you also believe that it can cloud the mind when looking at videos of your sessions, and taking lap times from those sources??? I watched some videos after the day was over and found these to be a great resource as how consistent I was on each corner and being able to correct mistakes. Or do you believe that once the times are known it becomes harder to focus on the other aspects, namely position, movement, etc.?

 

I cannot argue with any of the views here as to whether the "school" should time laps-as that is clearly going to bring the rath of the insurance carriers upon the event. I do believe that my personal situation allows me to be able to communicate with my crew and determine if I am turning consistent laps. If I am not, then I do need instruction and probably am not concentrating enough on the task at hand. This does not mean that I want to drive "flat out" for a course record time. I am quite aware of my abilities and that of the car-that I drive to and from the tracks we visit.

Not allowing me to determine by means of a stop watch or computer on the wall the level of consistency I am trying to reach is unfair to me. I run with a group of very hot shoes (Vettes, Vipers, NSX and a Ferrari or 2). I have no way to keep up with them and get to practice point bys with them (). My Prelude is quick in some places and slow in others-that is due to the driver and his desire to drive the car home in 1 piece.

I have attended several NASCAR type schools where the object is to go very very fast from the getgo. They indirectly time every lap using purpose built race cars. The Petty school uses electronic timing and gives you a printout of your last 2 sessions-insurance is obviously not an issue by comparison.

I also agree that if one is very serious about this activity, he/she should go to an SCCA or NASA driving school and then do track events where timing is a key component. We are going that route in 2003, with a purpose built car. I will also take it to my favorite venues to gain additional seat time. Yes, the radios will be active and we will record lap times. I am solely interested in being consistent and this is the combination I believe will work for me. It will in no way harm the event or its organizers as I am not using my track day time to race another participant.

I may not be in the majority as to HPDE events-but they are a lot of fun. I looked at my time sheets from Pocono and then understood how inconsistent I really was. You simply cannot feel it while driving the car-your mind must be on the task of getting around as cleanly as you can. I also discovered the effect of various changes in line both in the car and on the sheet later on. My best efforts at Watkins Glen came after I realized that I could indeed run much faster in the "esses" and the back straight than I had earlier on. The overall times came down and I became smoother in every corner thru the seat time I had there. I would not ask my crew (of 1) to give me a continuous update-that is a distraction. If I ask that is a different thing.

Just my viewpoint.

 

Yes, but if you are sitting at home the next day, the potential downside is pretty tiny. Still, if you were watching the video and focusing on your technique, the car's attitude, and your placement on the track, what useful information does the lap time provide? Effectively, none.

With respect to lap times being an indicator of consistency (in terms of feedback for immediate use), I'm not buying it. I've codriven with guys who could go out and run six laps back to back in practice within a tenth or two, fastest to slowest, without having ANY real-time idea what their laptimes were. A guy I raced with could sit in the pits, close his eyes, and do a lap at Portland within 1 second of his actual pace - mentally - telling you when to start and stop the watch.

Me? I'm a ******.

With respect to timing at the Petty school or similar deals, you have changed the ground rules for this conversation. That is a racing school - NOT an HPDE. A lot of schools (Russell did; Skippy does, I think) time every session you are on the track. However, they also generaly impose artificial rev limits and beat the crap out of you for exceeding them, early in the program. This accomplishes the same thing (in a different context) as the "no timing" rule does at HPDE-type events. Note too, these schools use race cars with full safety equipment appropriate to their venues and sanctioning bodies.

If you (StageOne) find yourself unable to get past the need to know your lap times, I would respectfully suggest that it is an indication of a mindset that might complicate your life, when it comes time to really try to lower them.

Kirk

 

No I am not changing the ground rules at all-my mention of Petty was to point out that some events are designed with a different set of operating rules. You are absolutely correct that they also require you to adhere to specific RPM numbers. I learned my lessons at Pocono doing the SRE school and how fast you are actually going is not as important as how you do it. I never knew the overall numbers until the end of both schools. Doing 1.5 miles at Lowe's in 36 seconds is not a great time. Averaging 160 at Pocono is slow as well. Both in purpose built cars.
The Prelude at Pocono was within 10 seconds of an Integra Type R on a very consistent basis-he had a watch and Hot Lap timer. The feedback I received from him and the NSX driver was that I was doing very well at Pocono on the oval and needed to work on the infield to clean up my line. I was also being somewhat gentle on the car. I will admit to being somewhat timid with my equipment, but not at the expense of consistency and improvement in performance.

You make an excellent point about revisiting ones efforts after a day in the seat. I had a number of good chats with other drivers and what they saw. I call that positive feedback.

 

sorry, without reading everyone else's posts yet, my thoughts are that it depends on how you use the time and how experienced you are.

if you are at a level of still learning how to control your car on the track, then theres no point and will be a distraction. i think its fine if you use advanced hpde groups as a test day as long as you do NOT push the envelop and just time yourself for consistency.

i totally disagree with time trialing competition while others are not competing and just doing normal hpde. the dichotomy of competing in time trial or qualifying amongst those who are just learning how to drive is unacceptable. if you are rcing against a clock, you are still racing and more willing to push the envelop and causes risks others on the track with you may not accept. if everyone is in the same competitng mindset, then thats still risky if all cars are not properly (fully) equipped to race standards, but im not gonna say anything more than i wouldnt participate in it.

as for the use of video, i have found only a few reasons to video, but fairly important. because im still relatively inconsistent on my lap times and how i take every turn, i use the video replay to examine how fast i have taken each turn, and what line i took. that way, i know i have previously taken the turn up to that speed and am more confident when i take that turn again at the limit, since i know the limit. another reason to video your runs is to examine when you go off what you did wrong such as; did you lift the throttle, when did it start to come out and so on. or if you get impacted, you have proof to the stewrds who's at fault. lastly, i have at times used my video replay to take lap times and are accurate within a second.


[Modified by Tyson, 1:24 PM 10/21/2002]

 

in california most of the HPDE/open track events are not officially timed. however most events have no problems if people want to use their own Hot Lap timer setup.

or, you can get something better (shameless plug) and analyse each session in full details...





http://dl90.com/downloads/

 

Another issue - when in an HPDE environment, how accurate can the timing be? With the high likelyhood of freight-trains and the severe limitations on passing, does a lap time even mean anything?

I can honestly say that I turned not one single clean (no traffic, no freight train) lap at my last HPDE - despite being in the "slowest" car in the advanced group.

 

EXACTLY

If you want to be timed in a safe environment - compete in Solo 1 events

 

Well, I'm curious to see what kind of lap times I am running, but I agree that as soon as I have a friend in the pits with a stopwatch, my mindset will change. You just can't help it.

Can someone time me without me knowing, please?