Flat dash users...
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Flat dash users...
For my next car project I'm considering a flat dash. There's a lot to like about them, everything in one place, shift lights, warnings, lightweight, ability to interface to my OEM ECU, and many with full datalogging and GPS track mapping ability.
Then, there's the other points.
Very expensive, expensive enough that they're a worry in an open car, being $1000-$2500 worth of stealable hardware. Then there's the question whether all that logger data is really used. Not whether it's useful, but rather, do you actually make use of it enough to warrant the expense? Do you spend time after every event analyzing each turn in the effort to find those last few fractions of a second or, after the coolness wears off, does the datalogging end up being ignored?
I guess that all depends on the driver, but unless you're in a national points race, I have to wonder how truly useful it is. For someone who just does HPDE events, do people really care enought to spend the time. I've heard from two datalogger users and one says adding it was worth 100hp to him, while the other guy says he ended up just using the dash and not bothering with track logger data. One driver participates in SCCA events and the other doesn't - the funny thing is that the SCCA driver is the one who questions its worth...
Just looking for more input.
Modified by kb58 at 6:31 AM 10/15/2008
Then, there's the other points.
Very expensive, expensive enough that they're a worry in an open car, being $1000-$2500 worth of stealable hardware. Then there's the question whether all that logger data is really used. Not whether it's useful, but rather, do you actually make use of it enough to warrant the expense? Do you spend time after every event analyzing each turn in the effort to find those last few fractions of a second or, after the coolness wears off, does the datalogging end up being ignored?
I guess that all depends on the driver, but unless you're in a national points race, I have to wonder how truly useful it is. For someone who just does HPDE events, do people really care enought to spend the time. I've heard from two datalogger users and one says adding it was worth 100hp to him, while the other guy says he ended up just using the dash and not bothering with track logger data. One driver participates in SCCA events and the other doesn't - the funny thing is that the SCCA driver is the one who questions its worth...
Just looking for more input.
Modified by kb58 at 6:31 AM 10/15/2008
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Re: Flat dash users... (kb58)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For my next car project I'm considering a flat dash. There's a lot to like about them, everything in one place, shift lights, warnings, lightweight, ability to interface to my OEM ECU, and many with full datalogging and GPS track mapping ability.
Then, there's the other points.
Very expensive, expensive enough that they're a worry in an open car, being $1000-$2500 worth of stealable hardward. Then there's the question whether all that logger data is really used. Not whether it's useful, but rather, do you actually make use of it enough to warrant the expense? Do you spend time after every event analyzing each turn in the effort to find those last few fractions of a second or, after the coolness wears off, does the datalogging end up being ignored?
I guess that all depends on the driver, but unless you're in a national points race, I have to wonder how truly useful it is. For someone who just does HPDE events, do people really care enought to spend the time. I've heard from two datalogger users and one says adding it was worth 100hp to him, while the other guy says he ended up just using the dash and not bothering with track logger data. One driver participates in SCCA events and the other doesn't - the funny thing is that the SCCA driver is the one who questions its worth...
Just looking for more input.
Modified by kb58 at 10:05 AM 10/13/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
Since I just wrote about 5000+ words about this in the two most recent issues of turbo I'm not going to indulge a whole lot.
The hardware is one of the least important aspects of data acq, the majority of the value is in the software package, and you do get what you pay for.
Take any of the following
http://www.efitechnology.com
http://www.motec.com
http://www.piresearch.com
Very intuitive to use analysis packages that are as powerful as they are simple. Most of the basic functions are right up in front where you need them to be with the complex functions in the back, so that when you get to that level they are there.
I can't speak for everyone, but once I have a system setup and running looking at data is simple
I have multiple folders, macros, templates, etc, all setup to analyze data in an efficient fashion. I have a simple graphical report that shows areas of win/loss time compared to a reference so that I don't waste time looking at parts of the track where there is no improvement to be had.
The october issue (has a Toyota JGTC300 car) of turbo discusses the hardware along with harnessing and what to choose and why, the next issue will discuss how to use the software etc.
It's all based of our software, because I know it likes the back of my hand, but most good data systems have good software
I did have the oppurtunity to play with a lower end, very popular companies system recently, and about 5-10 minutes into it, and finding no intuitive way to do anything and the lack of a good helpfile I just shut the laptop and decided I will never use it again
Then, there's the other points.
Very expensive, expensive enough that they're a worry in an open car, being $1000-$2500 worth of stealable hardward. Then there's the question whether all that logger data is really used. Not whether it's useful, but rather, do you actually make use of it enough to warrant the expense? Do you spend time after every event analyzing each turn in the effort to find those last few fractions of a second or, after the coolness wears off, does the datalogging end up being ignored?
I guess that all depends on the driver, but unless you're in a national points race, I have to wonder how truly useful it is. For someone who just does HPDE events, do people really care enought to spend the time. I've heard from two datalogger users and one says adding it was worth 100hp to him, while the other guy says he ended up just using the dash and not bothering with track logger data. One driver participates in SCCA events and the other doesn't - the funny thing is that the SCCA driver is the one who questions its worth...
Just looking for more input.
Modified by kb58 at 10:05 AM 10/13/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
Since I just wrote about 5000+ words about this in the two most recent issues of turbo I'm not going to indulge a whole lot.
The hardware is one of the least important aspects of data acq, the majority of the value is in the software package, and you do get what you pay for.
Take any of the following
http://www.efitechnology.com
http://www.motec.com
http://www.piresearch.com
Very intuitive to use analysis packages that are as powerful as they are simple. Most of the basic functions are right up in front where you need them to be with the complex functions in the back, so that when you get to that level they are there.
I can't speak for everyone, but once I have a system setup and running looking at data is simple
I have multiple folders, macros, templates, etc, all setup to analyze data in an efficient fashion. I have a simple graphical report that shows areas of win/loss time compared to a reference so that I don't waste time looking at parts of the track where there is no improvement to be had.
The october issue (has a Toyota JGTC300 car) of turbo discusses the hardware along with harnessing and what to choose and why, the next issue will discuss how to use the software etc.
It's all based of our software, because I know it likes the back of my hand, but most good data systems have good software
I did have the oppurtunity to play with a lower end, very popular companies system recently, and about 5-10 minutes into it, and finding no intuitive way to do anything and the lack of a good helpfile I just shut the laptop and decided I will never use it again
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Re: Flat dash users... (Ekasey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I did have the oppurtunity to play with a lower end, very popular companies system recently, and about 5-10 minutes into it, and finding no intuitive way to do anything and the lack of a good helpfile I just shut the laptop and decided I will never use it again </TD></TR></TABLE>
Why bother typing 50 words about something that isn't identified, rendering the entire paragragh like it wasn't typed at all? This isn't a magazine, where they have to suck up to the advertsers, it's just your opinion. Spill the beans!
That aside, I'm hoping to hear from track users who've had their systems for a couple years. Do you still regularly use the data analysis software, or has the novelty worn off and it's no longer used? I understand these are simply tools, to be used or ignored as the driver desires. I guess my real question is, how many users make active use of the analysis tools long after spending the pile of money.
FWIW, the SCCA driver I talked to said:
"Yeah it can tell me which parts of the track I did well on, and even strings all my best segments together to find my theoretically fastest lap. The thing is, I already know that! Without driver consistancy, the logger, in reality, is only telling me what I already know, that my driving sucks. I didn't need to spend $2000+ to know that!"
OTOH, he did say that the engine datalogging was cool, in case he really wanted to know how long he drove without coolant, or oil, or a really lean mixture, etc, etc...
Modified by kb58 at 6:33 AM 10/15/2008
</TD></TR></TABLE>Why bother typing 50 words about something that isn't identified, rendering the entire paragragh like it wasn't typed at all? This isn't a magazine, where they have to suck up to the advertsers, it's just your opinion. Spill the beans!
That aside, I'm hoping to hear from track users who've had their systems for a couple years. Do you still regularly use the data analysis software, or has the novelty worn off and it's no longer used? I understand these are simply tools, to be used or ignored as the driver desires. I guess my real question is, how many users make active use of the analysis tools long after spending the pile of money.
FWIW, the SCCA driver I talked to said:
"Yeah it can tell me which parts of the track I did well on, and even strings all my best segments together to find my theoretically fastest lap. The thing is, I already know that! Without driver consistancy, the logger, in reality, is only telling me what I already know, that my driving sucks. I didn't need to spend $2000+ to know that!"
OTOH, he did say that the engine datalogging was cool, in case he really wanted to know how long he drove without coolant, or oil, or a really lean mixture, etc, etc...
Modified by kb58 at 6:33 AM 10/15/2008
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Re: Flat dash users... (kb58)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
"Yeah it can tell me which parts of the track I did well on, and even strings all my best segments together to tell me my theoretically fastest lap. The thing is, I already know that! Without the consistancy, the logger, in reality, is only telling me what I already know, that my driving could be a lot better. I didn't need to spend $2000+ to know that!"</TD></TR></TABLE>
DL1 plus Dash3Lite will get you pretty far for $1095. Predictive lap timing, configurable display, multi-segment shift ligh, etc. If you have a working tach or don't care about a tach, this is a good deal. You can display RPM/Speed if you want but I'd rather see segment times and predictive times, last lap, etc.
http://www.fasttechlimited.com/
Predictive lap timing is cool. It tells you when you're going faster, just after you go faster. And, you'll get immediate feedback when you're slow.
-Chris
"Yeah it can tell me which parts of the track I did well on, and even strings all my best segments together to tell me my theoretically fastest lap. The thing is, I already know that! Without the consistancy, the logger, in reality, is only telling me what I already know, that my driving could be a lot better. I didn't need to spend $2000+ to know that!"</TD></TR></TABLE>
DL1 plus Dash3Lite will get you pretty far for $1095. Predictive lap timing, configurable display, multi-segment shift ligh, etc. If you have a working tach or don't care about a tach, this is a good deal. You can display RPM/Speed if you want but I'd rather see segment times and predictive times, last lap, etc.
http://www.fasttechlimited.com/
Predictive lap timing is cool. It tells you when you're going faster, just after you go faster. And, you'll get immediate feedback when you're slow.
-Chris
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Re: Flat dash users... (Chris F)
Yeah that's a good point. I'm currently considering the Race Technology Dash2 + DL1 datalogger. It does the predictive timing and can also interface to my KPro which is cool so I don't have to buy a second set of sensors.
Still, it's a lot of money, $1600 for the set, plus it's from England... Nothing against that, but it's a long way if I need service, thought they have a US rep. I didn't realize that a competitor unit from AIM is actually from Italy... I thought that was US-made. And Motec, I think, is Australian.
Modified by kb58 at 6:21 PM 10/13/2008
Still, it's a lot of money, $1600 for the set, plus it's from England... Nothing against that, but it's a long way if I need service, thought they have a US rep. I didn't realize that a competitor unit from AIM is actually from Italy... I thought that was US-made. And Motec, I think, is Australian.
Modified by kb58 at 6:21 PM 10/13/2008
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Re: Flat dash users... (kb58)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Why bother typing 50 words about something that isn't identified, rendering the entire paragragh like it wasn't typed at all? This isn't a magazine, where they have to suck up to the advertsers, it's just your opinion. Spill the beans!
That aside, I'm hoping to hear from track users who've had their systems for a couple years. Do you still regularly use the data analysis software, or has the novelty worn off and it's no longer used? I understand these are simply tools, to be used or ignored as the driver desires. I guess my real question is, how many users make active use of the analysis tools long after spending the pile of money.
FWIW, the SCCA driver I talked to said:
"Yeah it can tell me which parts of the track I did well on, and even strings all my best segments together to tell me my theoretically fastest lap. The thing is, I already know that! Without the consistancy, the logger, in reality, is only telling me what I already know, that my driving could be a lot better. I didn't need to spend $2000+ to know that!"
OTOH, he did say that the engine datalogging was cool, in case he really wanted to know how long he drove without coolant, or oil, or a really lean mixture, etc, etc...</TD></TR></TABLE>
I spill the beans in everything I write I will not be censored!
I'm not a track user just a humble data engine control engineer who works with DP, GT, off road etc.. blah blah blah
LEt me put it to you this way if you're not using the analysis tools you might as well have bought some neon underglow for the car and a fresh set of tires, at least then you wouldn't have thrown all of your money away.
I can understand where said driver is coming from but the fact is unless he's already a pretty good driver he's not going to know that he shorted the braking zone by a couple feet, got on the throttle a half second too soon etc.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah that's a good point. I'm currently considering the Race Technology Dash2 + DL1 datalogger. It does the predictive timing and can also interface to my KPro which is cool so I don't have to buy a second set of sensors.
Still, it's a lot of money, $1600 for the set, plus it's from England... Nothing against that, but it's a long way if I need service, thought they have a US rep. I didn't realize that a competitor unit from AIM is actually from Italy... I thought that was US-made. And Motec, I think, is Australian.
Modified by kb58 at 6:21 PM 10/13/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
They all have Us reps here that shouldn't be a huge concern, get demos of all the software packages and choose what you like best.
Why bother typing 50 words about something that isn't identified, rendering the entire paragragh like it wasn't typed at all? This isn't a magazine, where they have to suck up to the advertsers, it's just your opinion. Spill the beans!
That aside, I'm hoping to hear from track users who've had their systems for a couple years. Do you still regularly use the data analysis software, or has the novelty worn off and it's no longer used? I understand these are simply tools, to be used or ignored as the driver desires. I guess my real question is, how many users make active use of the analysis tools long after spending the pile of money.
FWIW, the SCCA driver I talked to said:
"Yeah it can tell me which parts of the track I did well on, and even strings all my best segments together to tell me my theoretically fastest lap. The thing is, I already know that! Without the consistancy, the logger, in reality, is only telling me what I already know, that my driving could be a lot better. I didn't need to spend $2000+ to know that!"
OTOH, he did say that the engine datalogging was cool, in case he really wanted to know how long he drove without coolant, or oil, or a really lean mixture, etc, etc...</TD></TR></TABLE>
I spill the beans in everything I write I will not be censored!
I'm not a track user just a humble data engine control engineer who works with DP, GT, off road etc.. blah blah blah
LEt me put it to you this way if you're not using the analysis tools you might as well have bought some neon underglow for the car and a fresh set of tires, at least then you wouldn't have thrown all of your money away.
I can understand where said driver is coming from but the fact is unless he's already a pretty good driver he's not going to know that he shorted the braking zone by a couple feet, got on the throttle a half second too soon etc.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah that's a good point. I'm currently considering the Race Technology Dash2 + DL1 datalogger. It does the predictive timing and can also interface to my KPro which is cool so I don't have to buy a second set of sensors.
Still, it's a lot of money, $1600 for the set, plus it's from England... Nothing against that, but it's a long way if I need service, thought they have a US rep. I didn't realize that a competitor unit from AIM is actually from Italy... I thought that was US-made. And Motec, I think, is Australian.
Modified by kb58 at 6:21 PM 10/13/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>
They all have Us reps here that shouldn't be a huge concern, get demos of all the software packages and choose what you like best.
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Re: Flat dash users... (Ekasey)
last HPDE i was at there were alot of people that just had something that would give you your lap times. I think it stored like 1000 or something like that, and it was much cheaper than a data logger. Like the OP i just do a few HPDE's a year and to me this would give you something to look at to see if you were improving and still wouldn't break the bank.
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Re: Flat dash users... (SleeperGSR)
A lap timer isn't the same as a data acquisition system. All that can tell you is whether or not one lap is slower or faster than another one, whereas the data aq shows you WHERE you're faster or slower, and (with analyzation) WHY you're faster or slower (more gas, earlier gas, less braking, etc.).
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Re: Flat dash users... (Stinkycheezmonky)
Thanks for the input. It's a ton of money, and as the car's going to be an open top, there's always the fear of it being ripped out of the dash while I'm in getting a burger or something.
However, they're darn useful, especially the combination of the dash, ECU interface, datalogger, and predictive lap timing. I just have to come to terms with how much I value the data. I mean, for a HPDE sort of thing it seems like huge overkill. So I figure out how to go a bit faster; it's not like I'm in the SCCA points race. OTOH, it's nice to know what works and doesn't, to have all the engine datalogging going on... So what am I saying... that I don't know what I want... could be. I appreciate the input and it is swaying me toward getting the setup.
However, they're darn useful, especially the combination of the dash, ECU interface, datalogger, and predictive lap timing. I just have to come to terms with how much I value the data. I mean, for a HPDE sort of thing it seems like huge overkill. So I figure out how to go a bit faster; it's not like I'm in the SCCA points race. OTOH, it's nice to know what works and doesn't, to have all the engine datalogging going on... So what am I saying... that I don't know what I want... could be. I appreciate the input and it is swaying me toward getting the setup.
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Re: Flat dash users... (kb58)
I am a HUGE fan of DA, and think that MAYBE only the very very best drivers don't need it.
I use AIM, in my race car and have worked with Motec and Pi but very limited. I like the AIM because i use it all the time, the Motec seemed very easy for me to use to. The Pi wasn't bad either.
I have had the Mychron3 in my car for 3 years now, note i am a newer driver, but every time i come off the track i find useful information when i look at the data.
I was REALLY having a hard time with turn 6 at T-hill, i just never seemed to nail it unless i completly FUBARED turn 5. Well after looking at data and seeing that i can go A LOT faster through turn 6 (thanks to a fellow racers data), the next session out i stepped it up in turn 6, simply by getting on the throttle a fraction of a second earlier then i had been and braking less then i had been. I knocked almost .89 seconds off of my best lap time that session.
IMO it paid for itself right then and there.
Not only that but i don't have to buy and have 4 or 5 gauges in the car, its all right there. For $800, bought mine used, you SIMPLY can't spend better money on your car.
I use AIM, in my race car and have worked with Motec and Pi but very limited. I like the AIM because i use it all the time, the Motec seemed very easy for me to use to. The Pi wasn't bad either.
I have had the Mychron3 in my car for 3 years now, note i am a newer driver, but every time i come off the track i find useful information when i look at the data.
I was REALLY having a hard time with turn 6 at T-hill, i just never seemed to nail it unless i completly FUBARED turn 5. Well after looking at data and seeing that i can go A LOT faster through turn 6 (thanks to a fellow racers data), the next session out i stepped it up in turn 6, simply by getting on the throttle a fraction of a second earlier then i had been and braking less then i had been. I knocked almost .89 seconds off of my best lap time that session.
IMO it paid for itself right then and there.
Not only that but i don't have to buy and have 4 or 5 gauges in the car, its all right there. For $800, bought mine used, you SIMPLY can't spend better money on your car.
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Re: Flat dash users... (slammed_93_hatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am a HUGE fan of DA, and think that MAYBE only the very very best drivers don't need it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Completely agree. What I'm asking is how many people actively regularly use the results or, after the novelty wears off, it ends up just being used as a tach/speedo?
For example, since an HPDE isn't officially timed, it's not like laptime is The Thing. If you're just trying to beat the car ahead of you, it's obvious if he's faster or or not simply by watching if you're gaining or not. OTOH, if you do true road racing I'd expect most drivers to be all over datalogging like stink on a monkey.
So I guess I'm just wondering how many continue using if after the coolness wears off. Looks like you do, so that's a mark in the "gotta have it" column.
Completely agree. What I'm asking is how many people actively regularly use the results or, after the novelty wears off, it ends up just being used as a tach/speedo?
For example, since an HPDE isn't officially timed, it's not like laptime is The Thing. If you're just trying to beat the car ahead of you, it's obvious if he's faster or or not simply by watching if you're gaining or not. OTOH, if you do true road racing I'd expect most drivers to be all over datalogging like stink on a monkey.
So I guess I'm just wondering how many continue using if after the coolness wears off. Looks like you do, so that's a mark in the "gotta have it" column.
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From: Charlotte, NC
Re: Flat dash users... (kb58)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Completely agree. What I'm asking is how many people actively regularly use the results or, after the novelty wears off, it ends up just being used as a tach/speedo?
For example, since an HPDE isn't officially timed, it's not like laptime is The Thing. If you're just trying to beat the car ahead of you, it's obvious if he's faster or or not simply by watching if you're gaining or not. OTOH, if you do true road racing I'd expect most drivers to be all over datalogging like stink on a monkey.
So I guess I'm just wondering how many continue using if after the coolness wears off. Looks like you do, so that's a mark in the "gotta have it" column.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think a lot of it depends on the individual driver as well I have worked with some top notch drivers that live and breath the data like its the biggest deal in the world, and others that glance at it and walk away
Completely agree. What I'm asking is how many people actively regularly use the results or, after the novelty wears off, it ends up just being used as a tach/speedo?
For example, since an HPDE isn't officially timed, it's not like laptime is The Thing. If you're just trying to beat the car ahead of you, it's obvious if he's faster or or not simply by watching if you're gaining or not. OTOH, if you do true road racing I'd expect most drivers to be all over datalogging like stink on a monkey.
So I guess I'm just wondering how many continue using if after the coolness wears off. Looks like you do, so that's a mark in the "gotta have it" column.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think a lot of it depends on the individual driver as well I have worked with some top notch drivers that live and breath the data like its the biggest deal in the world, and others that glance at it and walk away
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Re: Flat dash users... (Ekasey)
Basically the difference between Massa/Alonso and arguable the greatest driver in f1 history... Shumacher
Those who do acquire data and utilize it 'want" to learn and therefore are not prone to sticking at the same level of driving for their lives.
Those who do acquire data and utilize it 'want" to learn and therefore are not prone to sticking at the same level of driving for their lives.
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From: Charlotte, NC
Re: Flat dash users... (unrealwrc)
One of the biggest problems I see with new to data users is organization, and keeping good notes, Data is really something that can be a hindrance, or a benefit it just depends how you go about it.
Like I said I hate to keep plugging it but the articles I just wrote for Turbo part 1 and are great to give you a general overview of what's involved. Part 1 discusses the hardware, part 2 is the software with a really cool real world example of how you can employ a 3d plot to resolve setup issues
Like I said I hate to keep plugging it but the articles I just wrote for Turbo part 1 and are great to give you a general overview of what's involved. Part 1 discusses the hardware, part 2 is the software with a really cool real world example of how you can employ a 3d plot to resolve setup issues
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Re: Flat dash users... (Ekasey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah that's a good point. I'm currently considering the Race Technology Dash2 + DL1 datalogger. It does the predictive timing and can also interface to my KPro which is cool so I don't have to buy a second set of sensors.
Still, it's a lot of money, $1600 for the set, plus it's from England... Nothing against that, but it's a long way if I need service, thought they have a US rep. I didn't realize that a competitor unit from AIM is actually from Italy... I thought that was US-made. And Motec, I think, is Australian.</TD></TR></TABLE>
My experience with this system.... I set up the Dash2 + DL1 on three cars having never used race-technology's stuff before. I found their software to be powerful enough to do what we needed, once you learned to work around the little bugs and weird GUI traits. The dash2 is pretty nice as well, the shift lights are great!
Whatever you do, you have to get the GPS based system. Maybe they don't even offer a non-GPS one anymore, but definetly get the GPS.
They do now offer a CAN interface, so if you are using a CAN-based car setup overall is AWESOME since you don't have to run much wire (less sensor noise as well).
Yes they are based in England, but their U.S. rep Al Seim is very helpful, and actively relayed correspondance to engineering in the U.K, though eventually I ended up dealing with them directly.
Not the most powerful system certainly, but pretty good bang for the $.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I think a lot of it depends on the individual driver as well I have worked with some top notch drivers that live and breath the data like its the biggest deal in the world, and others that glance at it and walk away</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One of the biggest problems I see with new to data users is organization, and keeping good notes</TD></TR></TABLE>
Agree 100% on both points.
Modified by sackdz at 4:13 PM 10/15/2008
Still, it's a lot of money, $1600 for the set, plus it's from England... Nothing against that, but it's a long way if I need service, thought they have a US rep. I didn't realize that a competitor unit from AIM is actually from Italy... I thought that was US-made. And Motec, I think, is Australian.</TD></TR></TABLE>
My experience with this system.... I set up the Dash2 + DL1 on three cars having never used race-technology's stuff before. I found their software to be powerful enough to do what we needed, once you learned to work around the little bugs and weird GUI traits. The dash2 is pretty nice as well, the shift lights are great!
Whatever you do, you have to get the GPS based system. Maybe they don't even offer a non-GPS one anymore, but definetly get the GPS.
They do now offer a CAN interface, so if you are using a CAN-based car setup overall is AWESOME since you don't have to run much wire (less sensor noise as well).
Yes they are based in England, but their U.S. rep Al Seim is very helpful, and actively relayed correspondance to engineering in the U.K, though eventually I ended up dealing with them directly.
Not the most powerful system certainly, but pretty good bang for the $.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I think a lot of it depends on the individual driver as well I have worked with some top notch drivers that live and breath the data like its the biggest deal in the world, and others that glance at it and walk away</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One of the biggest problems I see with new to data users is organization, and keeping good notes</TD></TR></TABLE>
Agree 100% on both points.
Modified by sackdz at 4:13 PM 10/15/2008
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Re: Flat dash users... (sackdz)
I just visited the RaceTech website, and skimmed both the Dash2 and DL1 .pdf files, and I am very interested.
What is even more amazing is that there are CAN and OBD2 interfaces for the DL1 so there is no need to direct wire the logger.
I also like that the Dash2 is streetable, with blinkers and a odometer/trip.
What is even more amazing is that there are CAN and OBD2 interfaces for the DL1 so there is no need to direct wire the logger.
I also like that the Dash2 is streetable, with blinkers and a odometer/trip.
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Re: Flat dash users... (rota92)
If you're looking for info on the DL1, check with Jeremy Lucas at http://www.fasttechlimited.com. He's a club racer like most of us and has great customer service 
He's also got smokin' package deals for the Dash3 and Dash3 Lite.
He's also got smokin' package deals for the Dash3 and Dash3 Lite.
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Re: Flat dash users... (rota92)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rota92 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OP, what EMS are you running?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Wow, I'm nearly 50yrs old and so net literate that I know what OP means... lol.
Hondata Kpro. Both AIM and Data Tech have interfaces for it, which I find very cool - I don't have to buy a second set of sensors.
Wow, I'm nearly 50yrs old and so net literate that I know what OP means... lol.
Hondata Kpro. Both AIM and Data Tech have interfaces for it, which I find very cool - I don't have to buy a second set of sensors.
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Re: Flat dash users... (kb58)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kb58 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Wow, I'm nearly 50yrs old and so net literate that I know what OP means... lol.
Hondata Kpro. Both AIM and Data Tech have interfaces for it, which I find very cool - I don't have to buy a second set of sensors.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The AIM software makes my face hurt, really bad, not sure what a data tech is
Wow, I'm nearly 50yrs old and so net literate that I know what OP means... lol.
Hondata Kpro. Both AIM and Data Tech have interfaces for it, which I find very cool - I don't have to buy a second set of sensors.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The AIM software makes my face hurt, really bad, not sure what a data tech is
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Re: Flat dash users... (Autocratic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Autocratic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just visited the RaceTech website, and skimmed both the Dash2 and DL1 .pdf files, and I am very interested.
What is even more amazing is that there are CAN and OBD2 interfaces for the DL1 so there is no need to direct wire the logger.
I also like that the Dash2 is streetable, with blinkers and a odometer/trip.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Careful there though for OEM ECUs... not all sensors are broadcast over CAN and OBD. I can only speak to VW/Audi for CAN (Bosch ME7) but things like boost pressure , oil pressure, and steering angle to name a few were not broadcast on CAN. For those sensors that are, you still need the can addresses and physical conversions to log and log accurately. That information isn't readily available from OEMs (you won't find it in a service manual most likely).
The signals you should expect to find are the ones that are communicated between controllers or required by OBD. RPM and coolant temp for instance are broadcast from the ECU to the OEM gauge cluster and so are readily available (as long as you know the CAN address and conversion).
Sensors internal to the ECU that are not OBD required are not normally broadcast on CAN. The only options for these are reprogramming the ECU (which obviously most people can't do) or an additional interface to pull from ECU memory addresses ($). The alternative to running a dedicated sensor is splicing into the OEM sensor signal, which again requires the sensor conversion function, and is at the risk of effecting the signal at the ECU (from additional noise and load).
It sounds like with aftermarket engine management that has an I/O function built in it would be no problem though.
By the way if anyone needs Bosch CAN information for any platform, let me know, I can probably get it.
What is even more amazing is that there are CAN and OBD2 interfaces for the DL1 so there is no need to direct wire the logger.
I also like that the Dash2 is streetable, with blinkers and a odometer/trip.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Careful there though for OEM ECUs... not all sensors are broadcast over CAN and OBD. I can only speak to VW/Audi for CAN (Bosch ME7) but things like boost pressure , oil pressure, and steering angle to name a few were not broadcast on CAN. For those sensors that are, you still need the can addresses and physical conversions to log and log accurately. That information isn't readily available from OEMs (you won't find it in a service manual most likely).
The signals you should expect to find are the ones that are communicated between controllers or required by OBD. RPM and coolant temp for instance are broadcast from the ECU to the OEM gauge cluster and so are readily available (as long as you know the CAN address and conversion).
Sensors internal to the ECU that are not OBD required are not normally broadcast on CAN. The only options for these are reprogramming the ECU (which obviously most people can't do) or an additional interface to pull from ECU memory addresses ($). The alternative to running a dedicated sensor is splicing into the OEM sensor signal, which again requires the sensor conversion function, and is at the risk of effecting the signal at the ECU (from additional noise and load).
It sounds like with aftermarket engine management that has an I/O function built in it would be no problem though.
By the way if anyone needs Bosch CAN information for any platform, let me know, I can probably get it.
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Re: Flat dash users... (sackdz)
Good info sack.
Even if it's not all sensor information, I'm sure it would be enough for the basic user that is just getting into the data logging game.
For me, I will most likely be on 034 EFI by the time I would be ready to purchase a full Dash/DL setup. For $1600, that's one hell of a deal though. Most high end dash displays can be well over that alone.
Even if it's not all sensor information, I'm sure it would be enough for the basic user that is just getting into the data logging game.
For me, I will most likely be on 034 EFI by the time I would be ready to purchase a full Dash/DL setup. For $1600, that's one hell of a deal though. Most high end dash displays can be well over that alone.
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Re: Flat dash users... (Ekasey)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ekasey »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The AIM software makes my face hurt, really bad, not sure what a data tech is</TD></TR></TABLE>
Sorry, being lazy, I mean Race Technologies http://www.race-technology.com/dash2_8_940.html
They have a package deal for the above dash and GPS datalogger for $1600. http://www.race-technology.com....html Note though that if you want to interface to your OEM ECU (if they have the interface) it's another $200. Another cool thing is that it can interfact to CAN AND serial.
Some of the newer dashes out there have a deceivingly low price, but then they kill you when you find you have to buy CAN-based engine sensors that are $200-250 each!
Since this is turning into a flat dash thread in general, here's some others I've found:
http://www.spatechnique.com/pr...m.asp
http://www.aimsports.com/
http://www.etbinstruments.com/...w.htm
http://www.off-road.com/dirtsp...96519
http://veracitydata.com/NewFil....html
Modified by kb58 at 8:53 PM 10/15/2008
The AIM software makes my face hurt, really bad, not sure what a data tech is</TD></TR></TABLE>
Sorry, being lazy, I mean Race Technologies http://www.race-technology.com/dash2_8_940.html
They have a package deal for the above dash and GPS datalogger for $1600. http://www.race-technology.com....html Note though that if you want to interface to your OEM ECU (if they have the interface) it's another $200. Another cool thing is that it can interfact to CAN AND serial.
Some of the newer dashes out there have a deceivingly low price, but then they kill you when you find you have to buy CAN-based engine sensors that are $200-250 each!
Since this is turning into a flat dash thread in general, here's some others I've found:
http://www.spatechnique.com/pr...m.asp
http://www.aimsports.com/
http://www.etbinstruments.com/...w.htm
http://www.off-road.com/dirtsp...96519
http://veracitydata.com/NewFil....html
Modified by kb58 at 8:53 PM 10/15/2008
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From: Dallas, Tx, USA
Re: Flat dash users... (rota92)
I've actually considered the RacePak UDX, as it is pretty cheap, but it doesn't have data logging functions, but it can provide them with optional equipment. Problem is it logs off the dash, because all the sensors are wired to the dash, unlike some other systems. It also doesn't do lap timing. It is however another street legal dash with turn signals and odo.
Downside for me is that it's kinda long, and probably wouldn't fit where my cluster is.
http://www.importtuner.com/rev....html
Downside for me is that it's kinda long, and probably wouldn't fit where my cluster is.
http://www.importtuner.com/rev....html
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Re: Flat dash users... (rota92)
Here's another, listed only for completeness. I think their choice of colors and fonts is absolutely terrible - looks like a slot machine, http://rlc.com/RLC_Racing_Web_Site/index.html
Here's a few more:
http://www.motec.com/sdl/sdloverview/
http://www.competitiondata.com/
http://www.racepak.com/IQ3Dash/
This one, the IQ3, is the one that's all CAN-bus based. It's a great price, but if you have to add 2-3 CAN-based sensors, and you will, it'll put the price around $2000 which makes it much less of a "deal." I suspect they did it that way on purpose, suck people in with a low entry price then nickle-and-dime them to the order of $500-$1000 for sensors... no thanks.
http://trailtech.net/vapor.html
This little thing is totally at the other end of the spectrum. It's made for motorcycles and ATV, doesn't have logging, but it does replace a couple gauges. For $150 it seems like a great deal, it's just not intended for a real race car.
Modified by kb58 at 6:39 AM 10/16/2008
Here's a few more:
http://www.motec.com/sdl/sdloverview/
http://www.competitiondata.com/
http://www.racepak.com/IQ3Dash/
This one, the IQ3, is the one that's all CAN-bus based. It's a great price, but if you have to add 2-3 CAN-based sensors, and you will, it'll put the price around $2000 which makes it much less of a "deal." I suspect they did it that way on purpose, suck people in with a low entry price then nickle-and-dime them to the order of $500-$1000 for sensors... no thanks.
http://trailtech.net/vapor.html
This little thing is totally at the other end of the spectrum. It's made for motorcycles and ATV, doesn't have logging, but it does replace a couple gauges. For $150 it seems like a great deal, it's just not intended for a real race car.
Modified by kb58 at 6:39 AM 10/16/2008
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Thanks for making a thread like this!
I have been doing some research regarding digital dashes for a few months now. I am about to complete a K swap and was looking for an alternative to lining my Apillar with gauges... and having a lap timer incorporated in my dash would be great for HPDEs.
I have questions similar to yours as well. Can one really justify spending so much money for the data logging functionality just for HPDEs? It seems to me that the data would be great to have, and I can see myself using it on a regular basis... but I just don't think the need is there. Which begs the question, how much am I willing to spend?
Ive been eyeing the Aim MXL Strada... ~$1000. Includes a lap timing beacon as well. It can interface with K-pro, or additional sensors can be used for temps/pressures. I believe it can be used as a datalogger, but the memory allocated for that is abysmally small (although perhaps enough for 4 ~25 minute HPDE sessions???). If anyone has any experience with the Aim MXL units, Id love to hear about it.
Regardless, this thread has provided some useful info... thanks
I have been doing some research regarding digital dashes for a few months now. I am about to complete a K swap and was looking for an alternative to lining my Apillar with gauges... and having a lap timer incorporated in my dash would be great for HPDEs.
I have questions similar to yours as well. Can one really justify spending so much money for the data logging functionality just for HPDEs? It seems to me that the data would be great to have, and I can see myself using it on a regular basis... but I just don't think the need is there. Which begs the question, how much am I willing to spend?
Ive been eyeing the Aim MXL Strada... ~$1000. Includes a lap timing beacon as well. It can interface with K-pro, or additional sensors can be used for temps/pressures. I believe it can be used as a datalogger, but the memory allocated for that is abysmally small (although perhaps enough for 4 ~25 minute HPDE sessions???). If anyone has any experience with the Aim MXL units, Id love to hear about it.
Regardless, this thread has provided some useful info... thanks