Mythos EF

After hearing next year h1 will be a minimum weight of 2175 I almost went into shock

where before I had been building a 88 civic hatch with a d16 of about 160 hp or so now I am going to have to ballast up another 500 lbs or so

what this means is I will most likely toss about 3k worth of parts and dump in a s2000 motor and a shitload of cage related additions. Which means it will cost much much more than I had planned to or wanted to spend

I understand a need to level the playing field but I think a simple power to weight ratio would be much more effective. IE you make 240 hp like at least a couple of guys do you weigh 2400 lbs with driver

a 9-1 or 10-1 pwr to weight ratio would keep the costs way lower than a weight cap since thats free.

Especially since a large number of current or future h1 participants are or will be when they are done be way below the weight minimum.

Knestis

As much as I am a fan of formulae how would they be determined? Assuming of course that you mean "actual" race HP, are you talking dyno in tech?

Kirk

Mythos EF

In the manner of the motorola cup which was a 13:1 pwr to weight ratio

I am sure one of the sponsors would loan a dyno pak to test at random the top 3 ect.

there may be other ways but seeing a real time RSX roll out after 150k worth of development and crush lap times is not the answer

Mythos EF

double post

.RJ

well if you are intent on using a s2000 motor i imagine you will be in a world of ****.

If you are intent on being in a world of ****, you might as well use a RSX-R motor (K20) instead, it will fit right and be really fawking powerful w/ the allowed HC/H1 mods. An EK+K20 hybrid would destroy the field on the straights.

Power to weight is fine - if you have a way to enforce it - which ECHC does not. Min weight can be measured as soon as the race is over. Simple, effective. There's a thread on this (a few actually) on http://www.nasaforums.com - in the HC forum. Peruse those.

I also find it hard to believe that your EF hatch is going to come in at 1500 lbs w/o driver. There's no reason you shouldnt be reasonably close to 2175 w/ a B-series and driver.

chad

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well if you are intent on using a s2000 motor i imagine you will be in a world of ****.

If you are intent on being in a world of ****, you might as well use a RSX-R motor (K20) instead, it will fit right and be really fawking powerful w/ the allowed HC/H1 mods. An EK+K20 hybrid would destroy the field on the straights.

Power to weight is fine - if you have a way to enforce it - which ECHC does not. Min weight can be measured as soon as the race is over. Simple, effective. There's a thread on this (a few actually) on http://www.nasaforums.com - in the HC forum. Peruse those.

I also find it hard to believe that your EF hatch is going to come in at 1500 lbs w/o driver. There's no reason you shouldnt be reasonably close to 2175 w/ a B-series and driver.</TD></TR></TABLE>


dude......rj where do you come with with this crap????
an ek with an rsx type s or integra type r (jdm version) will not DESTROY ME in the straights!!!!!!!!!!!!! period.....not at this time now.....no final drives are out yet....

ef hatch can be built to 1800 with driver....so he was off by 125 pounds......


yes an s2000 engine is a rediculous idea.....the engine is almost max'd from the factory.....


do you mean EM as in 2003 or newer civic si? ek's are 96 -200o or 2001

.RJ

Chad - considering that a k20 weighs less than a B18 and is a better overall motor - and will make more power under the H1 ruleset than a B18...

The only think i forsee keeping them out now is the cost of entry - i dont see any pre-fab kits on the market now. And putting it in yourself is not going to be fun.

RJ

RSX-S motor...

Engine:
AEM CAI (Red)
King Moto TB 70mm
Type R Intake Manifold Polished
Hondata Gasket
AEM Fuel Rail
Type R Cams
Jackson Racing Race Header
Greddy EVO exhaust
Hondata K20A ECU upgrade
S-AFC




Also, Toda is going to release cams w/ ECU flash that puts down over 220whp. http://www.todaracing.com/prod....html

Under the H1 ruleset there's no reason that a K20 will not put down 240whp or more. Remember... the tuning just started with these things.

Mythos EF

the point being I was trying to keep the whole car simple and under 10k total cheap and that is no longer an option to stay competitive

BTW the s2000 motor only ran me 2k used.

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Felix &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the point being I was trying to keep the whole car simple and under 10k total cheap and that is no longer an option to stay competitive</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you're wrong here... a hatch with a stock (other than AEM) B16A ran low 1:28's at summit last weekend... would have been 3rd in class/5th overall if the ignition coil had not crapped out with 3 laps to go.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BTW the s2000 motor only ran me 2k used.</TD></TR></TABLE>

But the install and fabrication... well i dont even wnat to think about it, gives me a headache.

Mythos EF

No fabrication needed - will not elaborate in case I go this route. The wirng is rather simple once all the emissions related junk gets ditched.

Anyway higashi and kiwi and bota all have ITR motors in excess of 230 hp and the new weight rule will make us all even where they will benefit from wider and longer wheel bases as well as improved aero dynamics

sure if I could run 1800 lbs the b16 from a pure weight perspective will be excellent almost as much as the d16 I had planned to run.

Mythos EF

this is the k20 I would worry about 265 whp is considerable

http://www.vtec.net/articles/v...01836

.RJ

Can you build a reliable 230 wheel HP ITR motor under the Honda-Challenge H1 ruleset and be reliable? The S2K motor is effectively maxed out at 240 flywheel HP... say you net 20hp - that still leaves you at roughly 221 whp.

I'd venture to say no. And the guys you're talking about are running levels of prep beyond whats allowed in H1 currently (or ever probably).

What are you going to do for transmission? The stock S2K stuff wont work.

The only reason that i brought up my point about the stock B16 wasnt about weight or power. If you asked me if i thought such a car on KYB shocks and too-high spring rates and a stock b16 would ever be anything other than a backmarker, i'd have bet $20 on it. And lost. Driver is paramount to prep level for fast lap times. There is *much* less than $10K into that car. Maybe half if you bloat the cost of stuff.

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Felix &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this is the k20 I would worry about 265 whp is considerable

</TD></TR></TABLE>

The prep level of the hytech engine kit is beyond current H1 rules.

http://www.vtec.net/articles/v...01836

Mythos EF

The JDM version makes 250 flywheel hp stock.

The spoon s2k motor which would be legal under the current rule makes 250 whp on a RWD car and the civic would gain another 10% on that being fwd

Mythos EF

Anyway thanks to one of my sponsors I will continue to run the d16 but with considerably more power than I was working towards.

thx steve

You could change some of the parts back to stock and switch to others that are more drastic and make near the same power.

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Felix &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The JDM version makes 250 flywheel hp stock. </TD></TR></TABLE>

whoop diddley doodle...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The spoon s2k motor which would be legal under the current rule</TD></TR></TABLE>

How much does that spoon s2k motor cost? You blew your budget right there and still havent gotten it in the car....

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">makes 250 whp on a RWD car and the civic would gain another 10% on that being fwd </TD></TR></TABLE>

Closer to 5% in the whp department. Doesnt matter... The s2000 motor is a poor choice to stuff in a FWD hybrid on every level. But hey, its your money.

Mythos EF

the s2k motor makes 238 hp is stock trim and lays down about 191 whp so that 47 hp is about 25% and with a built car you would lose less than 15 % because of lighter wheels brakes and flywheel ect.

The point being you could duplicate much of spoons work for what the top 2-3 guys on this coat have spent on there engines.

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Felix &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The point being you could duplicate much of spoons work for what the top 2-3 guys on this coat have spent on there engines. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah no ****, especially since the spoon motor is $6400 and is a balanced and blueprinted OE motor.

But then you're still only putting down 220whp and an engineering nightmare when you could have a RSX-R motor with less hassle. Or a stock B16 for $1000 and work on suspension setup and driving skill.

JMU R1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Felix &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The JDM version makes 250 flywheel hp stock.

The spoon s2k motor which would be legal under the current rule makes 250 whp on a RWD car and the civic would gain another 10% on that being fwd </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah in theory this would be true but getting that swap to work would take monumental effort. Unless you have access to an awesome fabrication shop this would be cost prohibitive.

The H1 power/weight ratio problem is an interesting one tho. Because of the variety of chassis/engine combinations it will be sort of difficult to regulate this stuff. I'd like to hear some people's ideas.

.RJ

A displacement to weight formula would be a better option, since power cant be policed.

Mythos EF

I would be in favor of a weight to displacement rule over a min weight rule

I just want to be able to keep my costs low but I know of 10 cars that are not running now but will be by next year that were all over 30k to build.

JMU R1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Felix &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would be in favor of a weight to displacement rule over a min weight rule

I just want to be able to keep my costs low but I know of 10 cars that are not running now but will be by next year that were all over 30k to build.</TD></TR></TABLE>It only stands to reason that with relatively open rules people are going to start squeezing seriously fast racecars through them. Hopefully we can get the rules nailed down before serious performance inflation occurs. Still its somewhat inevitable for H1. I know everyone wants to keep it cheap but seriously, if you want a cheaper race car build something for H4/H5. Not to say that I wanna see people showing up with ridiculous H1 engines but I just feel like its not the economical class people want it to be. The only way that will happen is if the rules are significantly re-written NOW before a whole bunch of people invest money in pimp-*** class buster cars.

edit: cardinality


Modified by JMU R1 at 6:35 AM 7/13/2003

smokin rubber

excatly, open your eyes and stop crying, racing is expensive, espically if you want to run up front.

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by smokin rubber &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">excatly, open your eyes and stop crying, racing is expensive, espically if you want to run up front.</TD></TR></TABLE>

More or less.

It can be much less expensive, still run up front if you just drive the **** out of the car. I think this is true in H1 more than any of the other ECHC classes.

JohnW

Police pwr-2-weight= impossible.

I do think the minimum weight rule is a good one. The CRX is the lightest tub and will be the car to build with out the rule.

Last weekend-

J. Evans CRX- under 2200 lbs.
My ITR hatch- over 2400 lbs.
Both cars 200ish HP.

From turn 9 to 10 equaled 2-3 car lengths
from turn 10 to 1 equaled another 5-6 car lenghts

I could close up 4 car lengths or so into turn 1, then some more into turn 5 and the carrousel. But, as soon a we hit turn 9- 'Game Over'

200-250 est. lbs equaled 7 or more car lengths per lap. Not much you can do when your foots on the floor and the guy in front of you is inching away.


John- whos taking a break form pulling crap out of the hatch. We're on a diet.