So it seems everyone is wanting to buy parts for their race car to make it go faster, which is the right thing to do sometimes. But the other factor to racing is the driving Most problems can be fixed two ways, more expensive stuff, or driving through it. So I figure we could open up this thread to anyone who has questions about driving techniques i.e. left foot braking, heel toe, looking ahead. Or outlining specific places on course they are having trouble.

I'm not claiming to know how to drive at a world class level or anything I'm sure I'll ask questions too, but I just thought I'd open this subject up for discussion.

 

exactly the right thread at the right time. I want to learn how to left foot brake in autox and HPDE. Any suggestions where to start?

Also I have problems with the brake pedal going further in when I heal toe.

 

Start by just braking with your left foot every time you come up to a stop on the streets. It'll give you a good way to teach your foot not to just slam down like you do with a clutch. And don't forget to move your foot back over to take the car out of gear when your revs drop But once you teach yourself how to use different levels of pressure with your left foot, its just a matter of applying it to the course.

As far as heel toe I've heard a few different ways to do it. I learned by finding a back road no one ever used and would get up to 60 in fourth then brake with my right foot once the revs dropped enough I'd push the clutch in and move the shifter down a gear, then pivot on the ball of my foot and press the gas with my heel. It is awkward at first, but it does become more natural as you practice. Eventually you'll get to the point where you can move the shifter while raising the revs making a smoother down shift. I wouldn't recommend trying to learn going into turns. And if you find the pivoting is too hard I've heard of some braking with the ball of their foot on the right edge of the brake pedal and pushing the left edge of the throttle with the right edge of their foot. This might be hard with the stock pedals on a civic. But if you have aftermarket ones that are bigger this way may be easier. As I said though it will feel very awkward at first but if you practice enough you should be able to make it work.

I don't have time to go over what I typed I got to get to work, so if you need something clarified just say so. Hope this help

 

When braking, keep your foot on the right side of the brake pedal, so that the right edge of your shoe almost touches the gas pedal. Then you can swing your heel over and tap the gas. It takes practice to not slam on the brakes when doing that.

 

This is the method I use and teach, as it allows you to keep your heel on the floor. That planted heel allows you finer movement, as you are not using all the muscles in your entire leg to perform the process. Yanking the gas pedal towards the brake pedal can help with spacing (part of the bracket bends a little), as can aftermarket pedals. It is something that takes a lot of practice to perfect. Doing it on every single downshift on the street, whether hard braking or not, is the way to go. On track, you will encounter a variety of situations, so you should prepare yourself accordingly.

Left foot braking is the same: practice, and develop the fine muscle memory to be proficient at it.

For either, the track is not really the place to practice. Practice on the street until you have it down, then add to your track arsenal.

Shinny, thanks for the good topic

 

We have a practice course that stays the same all year the day before competition (autocross). One of my favorite things to do is really upset the rear end around a particular corner, full throttle than lift right before turn in. Its not a technique I plan to use often, but it is fun and demands car control.

There is a point where I can get it just right and not hang it out really far, and I think puts me at an advantage where iv noticed most brake.

Here is a good balance when lifting imho.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTQbBWnzKBI

Hanging it out more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qpb-wcuztE

 

i was always told that if you sliding, you're going slower. if you can start to count while in that slide, you're losing time. like that last video, it was about a half sec.

 

Yeah but if you are braking you are also slowing, and most Hondas are momentum cars. Obviously in the last video it was showing where it was disadvantageous, but the one above it I feel is right on the money.

 

Yeah I don't have wide enough feet for the tiny pedals and I'm too budgeted to get different pedals.

And your welcome lol felt like something was missing from the Autox/roadracing section

 

It's hard to control a FWD car through a slide and keep the most momentum on tarmac, braking is a much more predictable way to keep the highest average speed through a course. I point that out because unless I read it wrong you only do that in one corner that you've seen numerous times.

Now dirt and snow is a different story

FWD ice drifting ftw lol

 

your first video was good, and they always say slow in fast out.
also there will be sections where you'll be slow, and fast. it's just a matter of making sure it's not really slow, and making the fast, faster.



edit* would like to add that i am tired when writing this.

 

Great thread, hopefully I can learn some good stuff. Subscribing.

 

Judging from the engine speed in the vids, he seems to be going faster in the 2nd vid after the first slide.
Why does sliding make you go slower? If the front is sliding, then yes, you'd have to slow down to regain traction and steering. But if the back is sliding, you'd be putting power down to the ground and gaining speed instead of slowing down to regain traction. How does the 2nd vid show that sliding is disadvantageous? He went into the turn way faster than in the first vid, and he was able to carry his speed into the next turns.

I have practiced turning like that. I went into the turn hot, while on the gas. The front end would start sliding, which would mean I'd have to slow down to regain traction. Instead, I kicked the back end loose, and I was on the gas the rest of the way, picking up speed out of the turn.

Why would you want to go slow in fast out when you could go fast in fast out, like the 2nd vid shows?

 

the rule usually goes if you are sliding, and can actually count how many seconds you are in that slide, you are that many sec's slower.


edit* to help this, destoryer, how fast where your times between the two vids?

 

As I said previously, if the front is sliding, you need to slow down to regain traction, making you slower. If the back is sliding, you need to speed up to regain traction. It doesn't make sense that you'd be slower if you're going faster.

 

it might feel like your going faster, but the clock doesn't lie. the only way to clear this up is when destroyer tells us his time.

 

The clock wont tell us anything, the first one with the more applicable slide is a D16Z6 powered EF hatch, whereas the second is a H22 powered EG sedan. The sedan ran about 1.5 seconds faster average through that course than the hatch.

I agree fully that the second vid slide is detrimental to my times. The video was to illustrate what I was mentioning better. If there is any justification for it, its that there were a couple Integra's out that day on equivalent rubber running slower times, all of which slowed for the first corner.


Im not arguing that it is better to not slow down for every corner. But I dont believe every corner needs to be brake-turn-gas. Time to take an autocross class.

Edit: With this I am done discussing it, let other people post driving pointers.

 

hmmm.... guess we can't determine then..... oh well.

and i do have to agree that not every turn should be brake-turn-gas. it's should be, slow-turn-gas.

 

It all depends on the sliding like someone said. If you are sliding by understeering this means you were carrying too much speed into a turn which means you really have to wait to get onto the gas and you probably missed the apex of the turn.

But if you are getting the rear to slide (rotate) into a turn - especially a FWD car it can help to get the car turned better heading into the right direction, and on the gas sooner. But oversteering and having to counter-steer could be bad. It's a fine line.

 

Lol as I said, its hard to get the right angle and speed when sliding through a turn especially in a FWD, if you counter steer too much and just floor it the tires will catch grip and then point the car in the direction of the slide. Don't do it enough and you'll just slide wide and still be sliding when you should already be headed towards the rest of the course. If the rear naturally wants to come out like the first vid and you can control the car then yes it can be faster than braking through a corner.

 

It is very tricky to ever prove that sliding will help you go faster. It is very easy to prove the opposite. When you start dragging the tire sideways, it is no longer rolling, it is adding friction while running against its axis. The car also has a "pause" when the suspension rebounds when snapping from a slide back to normal slip angle. Regardless of the drive type, this will take some time away.

If you're sliding under breaking, you're adding excess slip to the tire and taking braking force away. If you're sliding on power, you're doing the same and the tire can't work to put power down.

I have limited experience with FWD, but have done enough racing in them to know that it is FAR faster to just hang it right on the edge rather than let it slide at all. It takes so long to gather things up that it is really not worth it. The penalty isn't as severe as it is in a RWD car, but there is still a penalty.

The only highlight of sliding is "pointing" the nose if overall time isn't the goal. For instance, say you're side-by-side with someone heading into a corner and will be on the inside. You'll both be slowed into the corner, and the dude with the lead out will take the place. Therefore, the person straightest on exit will be able to get harder on the gas and accelerate quicker. In this instance, it may be better to get the car rotated quicker before you're on power, since both of you will be limited on apex speed.

As someone mentioned previously, there is also a point on the friction scale where it might actually be faster to slide the car through a corner to balance it out and keep relative speed up. This is for tracks that are VERY slick (or covered in mud, snow, ice, etc). The reason is that the friction penalty isn't as great but the car is more difficult to point in.

This is a poor example with the exception of the corner that shows up at 0:35 in this video from last year. The track was brand new, and freshly wet for the first time in a while. In that corner our car would understeer and we would have to wait a very long time to get back to gas. It was much quicker to slide the car through the longer part of the corner and so that the entry to the left hander would be more lined up. The other times in the video where the car was sliding should be considered a mistake as far as lap time is concerned. I cannot express how slick that track was... it was amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTXfG7_XbYk

P.S.
The video says "Qualifying" but these are not fast laps. These were the first few laps out and I was feeling out the traction and finding the best way around the course in the wet.

 

And in a RWD it's that much easier? Countersteer too much and not get on the gas enough, and it'll snap back the other way. Get on the gas too much, and you'll spin it. I don't get what's so hard about it in a FWD as compared to a RWD.

Seems like the overall time would get better. You get on the gas harder out of a corner, taking the lead and gaining some time. In the next corner, you do the same and you gain even more time...and it would just keeps adding up, right?

 

I don't think its as hard as far as spinning. It is far easier to avoid a spin in a FWD car. The RWD car is a bit easier to maintain a decent speed in a slide since the control is separated out through 4 tires instead of (for the most part) 2. It is very easy to lose time in a FWD car with sliding.

Well the example I gave is more of a "Park and Go" line. The perfect line would be to brake using all the forward grip of the car, trail off the brakes as the car transitions into side load. By the apex, the car should have a quick moment of nothing but side load. After that moment, post-apex, the car needs to slowly transition to rearward load, powering off the corner. Every step of this corner is using up the maximum allowable grip the tires have to offer, if by means of forward, rearward, or side load.

As I said before, when sliding, you're actually passing that ideal slip angle where friction and traction are at their most efficient point. After you're in a sliding mode, the tires are now creating a dramatic amount more friction than usable grip. This is slowing you down and will not net in faster times.

Imagine that same 2 car scenario, but this time one following the other. The car in front of you brakes, you brake at the same point on the track, slowing together. The car in front uses his tires most efficiently, trailing off, carrying the most speed across the apex, and powering out efficiently. You enter the corner, snap off the brakes, get a bit sideways, but aim in the right direction early. The car in front leaves you a touch on exit, and since you passed that efficient point sliding around, you never regain that time despite being able to jump to gas early. You may be able to accelerate out of the corner, but the other car will average a higher speed through the corner, thus being faster.

Make sense? It's all quite complicated. The data acquisition we use shows this much better. You can both visually and numerically quantify the time lost from being above or below the ideal slip angle.

 

I run a fwd with a welded diff...it doesnt make much sense below about 60mph and only when going full tilt...but it can be fast.
I know guys who have done both welded and other kinds of LSD's, and the welded is just as fast.

Anywho...when you run a fwd with a welded, and you are giving it the tit's...the rear wheels are doing nothing but going along for the ride. They are sliding all over the damn place.

Basically, this is how it goes.

Brake for corner, turn in and IMMEDIATELY get on the gas (or you will push off the outside of the corner). When you do this, the rear will step out. If you are driving the **** out of it, you will be sawing the wheel back and forth like a dirt flattracker, fighting the oversteer all the way to track out.

If you try and drive it with very little slip angle, you will be slow.
If you try and trailbrake, you will be slow.


Oh yeah, it is handful and not easy to drive.

 

I am willing to bet that it could be faster if set up differently. I drove for a reputable Honda racing team last year and it was definitely faster to find the point in tuning that didn't require sawing of the wheel. I am a believer that if a car is set up properly and the driver is driving it properly, there should be no extraneous movements of the wheel. "Sawing the wheel" is not a fast technique. Every time you turn the wheel sharply you're merely moving the tire sidewall around. Ever seen an F1 driver's in-car footage? No extra movements, nice and smooth. Nobody should start up the "but an F1 car is RWD" conversation because the problem begins and ends with the tires, not what's powering them and where.

With the Honda I raced: Our goal was to get it to "loosen up" into and out of corners, but not to the point where it requires countersteer. As I said, that takes traction away from braking or power down and it will be slower. If you get going too sideways mid-corner, the added friction of the rear tire sliding across the surface will also slow you down.

With your car: If you can accurately drive the thing deep into the corner (trail braking, if you're not trail braking, you're not going fast enough, I promise) without getting "all crossed up" and can smoothly transition to power without any similar issues, then you're golden. If there's any messy sideways malarkey, you're losing time, probably more than you realize. Flattrackers are tossing the wheel back and forth because they are on dirt which offers very little traction at low slip angles. It's more trajectory driving than accurately pinpointing maximum adhesion to the racing surface.

Again, if you can't trail brake into a corner, you're definitely leaving something on the table, ESPECIALLY in a FWD car. Where they are so limited on mid-corner power-down, you need to maximize your entry and apex speed. A RWD car essentially can extend the straightaways by being able to power out of a corner more effectively. Because a FWD car is handicapped in this way, it must extend the straightaways by braking later.

This is one of the best examples (if a bit silly) of how to drive a FWD car effectively. If you've ever seen the show before, you'll know how sideways all the drivers get this little thing, including the other F1 guys. Lewis knows EXACTLY how much slip to give the car. You can tell on many occasions that the car "wants" to go sideways, but Hamilton stops it immediately. There are a couple moments when he has to sacrifice some of his apex speed due to too much oversteer (0:27), but he manages it VERY well. He very obviously maximizes entry speed and exit speed with trail braking and slow opening of the throttle... watch, and learn...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl_lhxxvls0