differances i am aware of
-echc is all honda
-speed tc is on toyo t1s as a spec tire
-speed tc is allowed bigger brakes

are there any other differances between (ex) an echc h1 itr and realtime's itr's.
-spencer..................curious

 

Different ends of the same spectrum.

 

Too many to list.

 

differences:

about $75,000 or so per car (more than my H1 car)

about $7500 or so per race, at least (more than I spend per race).

those Speed Touring cars are proffesionally put out racing cars. They were turning 2:13s on the VIR full course on STREET tires. that would destroy our best H1 cars.

Its racing in a different league. I don't believe it is more "fun" than our ECHC, just different racing in a different league.

Oh, and I don't like the amount of purposeful contact that seems to go on in each of their races.

Thats why I am elated to be running with my ECHC brethern!!!!!

 

Right on.

It’s a different world. It is racing with stuff on the line. ECHC is just racing for fun. There is a big difference here and this difference is what makes all the difference. Budgets 25+ times larger means faster cars, better drivers and harder racing and yup more contact. You have to be able to handle all these things if you want to play in the Speed TC. If not, then it's just not a game for you to play. And those who consider "contact" as the first reason why not to race in the Speed TC, then you are doing great! Because most folks would first have the problem of not making the first practice session due to $$$ reasons. And I once heard of a 1/4 million dollar budget for a BMW TC racer for last year, which shows just how wide this spectrum is.

 

yeah I felt the same way at National GP. well, maybe nauseous would be a better word....

 

i realize that its a differant leval, bit i guess what i am getting at is could a speed touring honda/acura run leagly in H1? i know this would never happen, but in theory...
-spenc


[Modified by SOLOef, 11:22 PM 12/1/2002]

 

We actually have had Speed World Challenge cars run with ECHC. Grant Lockwood ran his Prelude and Tom Stewart ran his Civic Si in an exhibition class for our special Hyperfest events. Generally though they are overprepped for even H1. They will generally have lexan windows, remote reservoir shocks and engine work that is beyond what is allowed even in H1.

 

Many of the Speed touring teams have more money invested in one motor than some of our entire H1 cars cost. And the top teams have several motors.
Shocks... You could field a competitive H5 car for what one set of some of those shocks cost.

Race entry fees are also $700 (More than 3 typical NASA or SCCA weekends) and they pay more for those Toyo street tires than us club racers pay for Hoosiers.
And the Toyos are competitive for exactly one qualifying and one race session.

Think of it as NASCAR for the US road racing crowd. Big money, multi car teams, lots of sponsorship, and lots of bent sheet metal.

The two can't even be compared. Apples to tennis *****.

 

lol

So which is the tennis ball?

 

So true. Robert Baxter mentioned that the motor his Protege costs a cool $16k...

The WC is one of those poker games you need an invitation to play in. And that's only the touring class. The GT class is yet again a whole other ball game.

 

ah hah. thanx for the info.
-spenc

 

Yes, agreed. It can also go the other way though (as you pointed out in your last line). If an ECHC H1 team would have the budget of a Speed TC car, it could afford to buy the same precision, level of preparation and if the budget is large enough, even afford to put a good driver behind the wheel. So in the end the biggest part of the equation is still money. If you can find enough of it one way or another, most of the pieces (if not all) just fall into place eventually and voila, you have a TC team.

Competition also drives the price way up. (Just check out what it did to SM.) A turn key car Touring from Turner Motorsports is around $115K or so. That is not far off what Porsche asks for one of their 996 Cup cars which are eligible for GT (not the GT3R le mans 996). If GT had the competition level of Touring, costs would climb way higher. But it looks like it is on its way with the new BMW team that will give Champion a run for their money (literally!).


[Modified by Hracer, 11:22 AM 12/2/2002]

 

It good to be hopeful sometimes, but being realistic is never a bad idea. But by just the few things I know about the WC, anything close to a $20K effort right now will not get you a win or a top finish if you build from scratch. It could get you one weekend driving (renting) a top car with some spare change in the end, or maybe even a two race deal. But running the WC might have been a little cheaper last year, not sure. Still, $20K builds you a nationally top running Spec Miata car! Not a Speed Touring car. And I could be miss guided, but that (2100lbs?, 200 whp? 9.5K+ rpm?) Civic hatch from '01, at least on paper, looked like a better competitive package than Foo's '02 package, relatively speaking of course by taking into account the current competition into consideration. Just look at Harvey this year, with that Civic coupe. He is FAST. However, it probably took easily 3 or 4 fat $20K dollar bills to build, plus at least that much to run it for one season. Still, it shows that the 1.6L screamer on steroids can still play with the top dogs in Touring. Tom Stewart (who also raced with the ECHC this year) looks to have put out a mid pack effort this year in Touring and even so, those who've seen that car run know how fast it is. (I believe he ran a mid 2:13 at vir on toyos. That's pretty quick!)

 

Not a chance. If you added labor, Foo's car would have cost way more. I'm in no way trying to minimize his accomplishments - what he did in 2001 takes skill, lots of effort, and a dose of luck. And the cost of the car is only a small portion of the cost to actually race it.

Also, I seem to recall the cams he used at Laguna were promptly banned after the race. Or did they give him more weight? I remember something was done to equalize his car.

 

I don't mean to "hijack" this thread (I think this is the correct term I've seen used? ), but it really is interesting talking about the cost "myth". The cost myth exists all over the place in racing. What everyone wrote above about the costs and the spectrum is very true. And at the level Speed Touring is at, ALL the top teams are working very hard and are quite knowledgeable. That's why they are the top teams.

The best way to see through the cost myth is to find our for yourself the costs. For a Civic Si, give Taz a call and asking him what it would cost you to build a Civic Si Touring car like his, or to the level or Foo's '01 car. Again, it takes $20K to build a front running Spec Miata. There is also a top running ITS BMW for sale for $37K I believe and we're talking about amateur racing. Also keep in mind, the "in house" or labor efforts/time it takes to build a racecar (especially a Touring car) are sometimes more than the total money spent on buying all the fancy parts for the car in the first place. So until I see the total bill it costs to build any semi-competitive WC Touring car of the last 2-3 years anything close to $12K (heck switch the #s around even and make it $21K) is a myth, but a very happy one at that.

 

Roger was asking $35,000 for the 2000 hatchback he built. Then you need to add development costs (varying springs, swaybars, extra wheels, etc). I'm not sure if this hatch is seamwelded, has lexan, etc.