Autox question
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
From: South Carolina
Re: (Sean O'Gorman)
Autocross is primarily made of of sharp corners and switchbacks such as lane changes and slaloms, it will favor a car that rotates well, so if your setting it up, then you want to be closer to oversteer.
With FWD this is even moreso, because you can "use" your throttle to save you from most cases of oversteer, meaning it will help you be able to stay on throttle longer. How much oversteer depends on you as a driver and your comfort level.
As far as it depending on the driver, yes. but everything depends on the driver to some extent. There is what the driver likes, and there is what the driver induces. What he likes is what determines the set-up (as said above with the comfort comment) and what he induces is his choice of how to drive the car. For instance, later sharper entries to corners will tend to induce more oversteer than an early slow entry..
From the sound of your question though, i would guess you are still realitivly new so my best advice is to look ahead, and be smooth. Dont think you have to "go fast." 30 MPH may feel slow but its FLYING on street tires when its time to corner. So slow down, look ahead, and learn what the car needs as you go along, in the end it will make you a much stronger driver.
I hope that helps,
Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com
With FWD this is even moreso, because you can "use" your throttle to save you from most cases of oversteer, meaning it will help you be able to stay on throttle longer. How much oversteer depends on you as a driver and your comfort level.
As far as it depending on the driver, yes. but everything depends on the driver to some extent. There is what the driver likes, and there is what the driver induces. What he likes is what determines the set-up (as said above with the comfort comment) and what he induces is his choice of how to drive the car. For instance, later sharper entries to corners will tend to induce more oversteer than an early slow entry..
From the sound of your question though, i would guess you are still realitivly new so my best advice is to look ahead, and be smooth. Dont think you have to "go fast." 30 MPH may feel slow but its FLYING on street tires when its time to corner. So slow down, look ahead, and learn what the car needs as you go along, in the end it will make you a much stronger driver.
I hope that helps,
Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,116
Likes: 2
Re: (Sean O'Gorman)
For me, the ideal answer is more like "neutral"... a state where you can controllably make the car rotate as little or as much as you like...
but if you had to choose either over or under, I'd choose oversteer, because its much more fun.
The reality is you'll be putting alot of effort into dialing out the understeer that is naturally inherent on a FWD car.
That is vastly simplifying the whole topic though, there are more degrees of controllability under certain maneuvers that often require the sacrifice of another strength to attain...kinda sucks, but with time, your driving style will tell you what you'd rather sacrifice and emphasize.
but if you had to choose either over or under, I'd choose oversteer, because its much more fun.
The reality is you'll be putting alot of effort into dialing out the understeer that is naturally inherent on a FWD car.
That is vastly simplifying the whole topic though, there are more degrees of controllability under certain maneuvers that often require the sacrifice of another strength to attain...kinda sucks, but with time, your driving style will tell you what you'd rather sacrifice and emphasize.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,116
Likes: 2
Re: (hatch2k)
Another thought on making FWD neutral.
You'll quickly run into the fact that the front tires have a limit of how much work they can do. The more work they do turning the car, the less they can do braking or accelerating the car. Conversely, the more work they do braking or accelerating the car, the less work they can do turning it.
So in theory, the more of the rotation work you can get done by the rear wheels (by making them lose some traction and/or toe out if possible) the less turning the front wheels will need to do, and so the more work they can do braking and accelerating.
Hehe, big fat sticky tires up front can overall do more work.
You'll quickly run into the fact that the front tires have a limit of how much work they can do. The more work they do turning the car, the less they can do braking or accelerating the car. Conversely, the more work they do braking or accelerating the car, the less work they can do turning it.
So in theory, the more of the rotation work you can get done by the rear wheels (by making them lose some traction and/or toe out if possible) the less turning the front wheels will need to do, and so the more work they can do braking and accelerating.
Hehe, big fat sticky tires up front can overall do more work.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,682
Likes: 0
From: Middleburg Heights, OH
Re: (hatch2k)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hatch2k »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but if you had to choose either over or under, I'd choose oversteer, because its much more fun. </TD></TR></TABLE>
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: PA, USA
Re: (racerjon1)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racerjon1 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
From the sound of your question though, i would guess you are still relatively new so my best advice is to look ahead, and be smooth. Don't think you have to "go fast." 30 MPH may feel slow but its FLYING on street tires when its time to corner. So slow down, look ahead, and learn what the car needs as you go along, in the end it will make you a much stronger driver.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Correct, I am new at all of this. My Accord was and still is the vehicle I have been daily driving for three yrears now. At this time I can not afford a second Honda to toy around with in AutoX. So my setup now is just H&R race springs and KYB adj. The Suspension Techniques sway bar front and rear kit, spacers (not sure what size yet) and Falken Azenis will come in early Spring before Honda Day 2005
Last years Honda Day at Englishtown Raceway NJ I ran my H&Rs and KYBs on the Accord and placed 3rd in my class,(there were only 5 in the class but I didn't care, because I received a trophy).
I completely understand your point of speed on the autoX course. I got lucky, a guy down the street from me has been introducing me to the sport. His member name is CivicSiRacer (heard of him? he is around here alot) and has been autoXing for a long time now, very good at what he does and with plenty of knowledge to help me with. Also great guy to know, thanks Mike!
Modified by AccordCD5 at 8:47 PM 10/15/2004
From the sound of your question though, i would guess you are still relatively new so my best advice is to look ahead, and be smooth. Don't think you have to "go fast." 30 MPH may feel slow but its FLYING on street tires when its time to corner. So slow down, look ahead, and learn what the car needs as you go along, in the end it will make you a much stronger driver.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Correct, I am new at all of this. My Accord was and still is the vehicle I have been daily driving for three yrears now. At this time I can not afford a second Honda to toy around with in AutoX. So my setup now is just H&R race springs and KYB adj. The Suspension Techniques sway bar front and rear kit, spacers (not sure what size yet) and Falken Azenis will come in early Spring before Honda Day 2005
Last years Honda Day at Englishtown Raceway NJ I ran my H&Rs and KYBs on the Accord and placed 3rd in my class,(there were only 5 in the class but I didn't care, because I received a trophy).
I completely understand your point of speed on the autoX course. I got lucky, a guy down the street from me has been introducing me to the sport. His member name is CivicSiRacer (heard of him? he is around here alot) and has been autoXing for a long time now, very good at what he does and with plenty of knowledge to help me with. Also great guy to know, thanks Mike!
Modified by AccordCD5 at 8:47 PM 10/15/2004
Trending Topics
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
From: South Carolina
Re: (AccordCD5)
It looks like you are off to a good start then, having an experienced guy to help will shorten the learning curve.
As far as the Accord, dont worry about not having another car.. I started out in a CRX HF.. killed myself trying not to be last, then when i saved up about $1500 bought an 87 Si, some Konis, an extra set of rims and went autocrossing. I went from trying not to be last to competiting for the NC State championship (at the time a very fast series and against people in class who are nationals trophy level) So, enjoy the Accord, learn from it..
As for set up, start both ends shocks in the middle, and work out (soften the end you want to grip more) then once you find a ballance there, either adjust small amounts for each course, or tire pressure. This will take a long time, and you could probably fill a good half season dialing in shocks and tire pressures to your liking. Then just drive it, and drive it and drive it..
Eventually you will hop in a car that actually is decent, and people will say "wtf, where did he come from?" or Better yet.. "how the hell does he make that accord go so damn fast"
Keep having fun with it, that really is what counts. (too much $ and effort in this sport to not have fun wherever you are running)
Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com
As far as the Accord, dont worry about not having another car.. I started out in a CRX HF.. killed myself trying not to be last, then when i saved up about $1500 bought an 87 Si, some Konis, an extra set of rims and went autocrossing. I went from trying not to be last to competiting for the NC State championship (at the time a very fast series and against people in class who are nationals trophy level) So, enjoy the Accord, learn from it..
As for set up, start both ends shocks in the middle, and work out (soften the end you want to grip more) then once you find a ballance there, either adjust small amounts for each course, or tire pressure. This will take a long time, and you could probably fill a good half season dialing in shocks and tire pressures to your liking. Then just drive it, and drive it and drive it..
Eventually you will hop in a car that actually is decent, and people will say "wtf, where did he come from?" or Better yet.. "how the hell does he make that accord go so damn fast"
Keep having fun with it, that really is what counts. (too much $ and effort in this sport to not have fun wherever you are running)
Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,802
Likes: 1
From: Atlanta, GA
Re: (racerjon1)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racerjon1 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> or Better yet.. "how the hell does he make that accord go so damn fast"
Keep having fun with it, that really is what counts. (too much $ and effort in this sport to not have fun wherever you are running)
Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats what I always liked to hear. Stick with what you have and keep driving it. I would keep the suspension you have for a while, and if you ever go with some stiffer springs, then drop the front ST bar for the stock one.
Keep having fun with it, that really is what counts. (too much $ and effort in this sport to not have fun wherever you are running)
Jon K
http://www.seat-time.com
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats what I always liked to hear. Stick with what you have and keep driving it. I would keep the suspension you have for a while, and if you ever go with some stiffer springs, then drop the front ST bar for the stock one.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
From: Dallas, PA, 18704
Re: (smokin rubber)
I think the best way to describe the understeer vs. oversteer thing is to know that a FWD car doesn't like to turn because it always overtaxes the front tires, and you can get a better balance of fast turning and exit speed with more oversteer. but watch the corner entry!!!!!!
But I wouldn't set it up for oversteer... just know that you need to feel like you have oversteering tendencies when you need it. They guys who have responded really have it right.... and definitely don't increase the size of the front swaybar. And run at least 1.5 degrees negative camber in front.
Chris
But I wouldn't set it up for oversteer... just know that you need to feel like you have oversteering tendencies when you need it. They guys who have responded really have it right.... and definitely don't increase the size of the front swaybar. And run at least 1.5 degrees negative camber in front.
Chris
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 461
Likes: 0
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Re: (4thgenlude)
I went from my street tires to a set of azenis today. I put 1/2 turn in the koin's in front and 1 1/2 in the rear and now that I think about it I might of had a bit too much oversteer in it. It felt good when I was out there, i cold get it to rotate pretty well. Coming up to the timing light at the end there was a quick right-left jerk and the rear stepped out on me at full throlte, so I crossed the line sideways and continued spinned until, well, I got it stopped. It's the first time I've been in an all out spin, I'm mean I've gone sliding before but never a full 360+.
I found out that I really didn't know how to drive saloms today when I got one of the fasstest guy out there to ride with me, I also found out that I was braking too much when I could of been throtle steering. I think mentally I was still on my street tires, but I learned a lot.
Find the fastest guy in a FWD car that is similar to yours and get him to ride with you and tell you where you're slow, that seems to be the best way to learn. The guy I got to ride with is in a 88 or 89 'teg and I still am tryign to figure out how he kept it on the ground.
I found out that I really didn't know how to drive saloms today when I got one of the fasstest guy out there to ride with me, I also found out that I was braking too much when I could of been throtle steering. I think mentally I was still on my street tires, but I learned a lot.
Find the fastest guy in a FWD car that is similar to yours and get him to ride with you and tell you where you're slow, that seems to be the best way to learn. The guy I got to ride with is in a 88 or 89 'teg and I still am tryign to figure out how he kept it on the ground.
Thread Starter
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: PA, USA
Re: (4thgenlude)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 4thgenlude »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hey, I just learned alot!!!!
this site is great </TD></TR></TABLE>
Wow, one of my posts helped someone else too, thats a first!
this site is great
</TD></TR></TABLE>Wow, one of my posts helped someone else too, thats a first!
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
From: Chesapeake, VA, US
Re: (AccordCD5)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Eventually you will hop in a car that actually is decent, and people will say "wtf, where did he come from?" or Better yet.. "how the hell does he make that accord go so damn fast"</TD></TR></TABLE>
hehe, a friend of mine linked me to this post. i currently drive an FSP 94 accord and i got it going pretty quick and they wonder how an accord can do what i make it do. what really helps it out is it's low end torquey motor and wide wheel track. although being wide is sort of a dissadvatage in autox, it makes the car stable and easier to drive when you set it up towards oversteer. i'm hoping to give the national contenders a run for their money next year
AccordC55, be sure to check out http://www.accordinglydone.com . we have a lot of good information there that can help you out, especially in the suspension section, including my currect setup.
hehe, a friend of mine linked me to this post. i currently drive an FSP 94 accord and i got it going pretty quick and they wonder how an accord can do what i make it do. what really helps it out is it's low end torquey motor and wide wheel track. although being wide is sort of a dissadvatage in autox, it makes the car stable and easier to drive when you set it up towards oversteer. i'm hoping to give the national contenders a run for their money next year
AccordC55, be sure to check out http://www.accordinglydone.com . we have a lot of good information there that can help you out, especially in the suspension section, including my currect setup.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
brandonb18
Honda Civic / Del Sol (1992 - 2000)
11
Oct 25, 2009 06:21 PM