i have a question regarding alignment. i need a general purpose performance alignment that would perform in autocross, roadrace, street duty and 1/4 mile, in roughly that order of preference. tire wear is not much of a concern. i'm not one to change alignment specs for each track, so i would like to know the general though on toe and camber settings. i was thinking 1/8 total toe out in the front, 0 toe in the rear, and 1 degree neg. camber all around.
my suspension setup is as follows:
94 civic h/b
2398 lbs
RG coilovers 5 way adj. (cornerweighted, with my fat *** in the car)
12k/10k springs (670lb front/580lb rear)
26mm rear bar
225/45f-205/50 rear a3so3 (autocross)
225/45 all around (track days)

i would like the car to be able to rotate relatively freely at autocross, but want something a tad more stable out on the track. i have been known in the past run more psi in the rear tires (ES 99 civic, 34f, 50r!) when autocrossing just to get the back to rotate, so a slightly more conservative alighnment will be ok. anyone have any thoughts/comments on this? thanks for any help.


[Modified by rodney, 6:56 AM 2/3/2002]

 

oh man, i need to talk to you about your setup! Tires, coilovers, sway bar, etc. Call me 248 540 4842
Jeff
p.s. I have a '94 hatch and can tell you some decent base settings


[Modified by jgale, 2:10 PM 2/3/2002]

 

Hey Rodney who makes your 26mm rear bar?

 

Mugen.

 

anyone have any comments or you guys just don't like me?

 

Out of curiosity, what are the factory specs for your car? The reality might be that, since you are looking at such a range of uses and are don't want to monkey with settings, you might be best off within the factory dimensions. In reality, you won't know if you have maximized your set up without trying different things in an organized way, testing results with a watch and tire pyrometer. Any set-up that you take off of someone else's car is going to be a SWAG unless they have exactly the same hardware as you do and are doing the same thing with it. Sorry, not a very zoomy answer but in reality, unless you have another ride for daily transportation, you are going to do WAY more miles on the street than at the track (tracks?) and broiling down the inside edges of good tires is going to hurt performance there. I don't sound like very much fun, huh? Of course, I might be VERY wrong if the stock specs are really wonky...

Pragmatic Kirk

(Edit spazzy spelling.)



[Modified by Knestis, 4:13 AM 2/5/2002]

 

I don't think it is that no one likes you. It is hard to make suggestions. Everyone has different skill/comfort/perfomance goals. What works for me might not work for you. Here are some changes you can try to give more rotation. Run 1/2 to 3/4 degree more negative camber up front than the rear. Dial in some toe out in the rear (1/26-1/8 total). Run a higher rate spring in the rear. Most people run about 200#'s more on up in the rear than the front. Not sure if these will be legal for the auto-x class you run so check the rules first. Don't do them all at once. You might find the changes too extreme for you. How much you do will be up to you. You will need to balance the increase in handling to practicality if this is still a street car/daily driver. Keep in mind, the better the car handles for comp. type events, the more treacherous (sp) it can be on the street (lift throttle oversteer, etc.).
added in edit. The stock specs call for a range that includes -1 camber. You could run 1 1/2 f & 1/2-3/4 rear. Keep in mind that toe kills tires faster than camber


[Modified by civicrr, 8:26 PM 2/4/2002]

 

i ran almost stock itr specs before, with a little more toe out in the front.and, no i do not drive the car every day, rarely actually. just looking for some info, i think i am going to dial in a bit more neg camber ( i didn't have adj camber before) to take advantage of the hoosiers.

 

You will need a lot more neg. camber to take full advantage of the Hoosiers. Do some searches. I think you will be in the range of -2 to -4 depending on f or r. You might also check out their website.

 

Okay, if that is the case think about a couple of basics...

More negative camber is going to increas lateral grip (more than 1-2 degrees would probably be too much but, again, it is hard to know for sure without testing).

More negative camber is going to HURT braking and acceleration (tire grip limited, not HP or brake mechanics).

A teensie bit of toe out at the back end will make the car inherently less stable - a good thing for autocross and MAYBE road courses.

Good advice in the post above, about changing things one at a time!

Kirk

(edit reply to above - yow! Four degrees?)





[Modified by Knestis, 4:31 AM 2/5/2002]

 

ok, i will. thanks. oh, and if i go to solo 2 nationals this year (doubt it, i'm training for a new career) i will truck it there.

 

Cool. I think what might have thrown people off was putting 'street' in there.

 

how much, if any, modification to the fenders and quarters did you need to perform to fit the Hoosier 225/45-15 r3s03's. I had ordered a set of these last year for my hatch, and sent them back. They were huge! Seemed like an inch wider than the 205 50(which rub on those special curb jumping excursions). Will they fit? Is anyone else running them on a '92-'95 civic hatch or coupe?
Thnaks

 

Rodney -

I am *not* a honda alignment expert, but I thought I'd at least try to stir up some controversy, especially 'cause everyone else seems to be asking questions instead of answering them.

Camber: With an adjustable suspension, you should go for optimum for cornering grip at each axle, ie consistent temp profile. Don't do anything funky with the rear camber (or pressure! or tire width!) just to get more rotation -- that's what springs and swaybars are for. (Remember, reducing rear grip by deviating from the optimum contact patch REDUCES overall grip and cornering speed, while optimizing the proportions of weight transfer for balance INCREASES overall grip)

According to the guys I know on Hoosiers, 2 to 3 degrees front and 1 to 2 degrees rear is optimal for a road course on a stiffly spring car. Get a pyrometer and do some testing. Braking and accelerating are hurt slightly, but if you look to the top levels of auto-x and roadracing, all the winners seem to think this is an acceptable compromise.

Toe: Again, what I have heard is that zero toe is a good starting point, front and rear. For better turn in (autocross), toe the front out 1/16". For a "wilder" back end (like mentioned above), toe the rear out 1/16". For better high speed stability, toe the front and rear in 1/16". Toe is somewhat subject to personal preference.

Like I mentioned, these are the "basics" for most cars, but I'd like to hear if they are consistent with other's experiences.

Mike (1989 BMW with 3.0 neg camber front, 2.0 rear, 1/16" toe out front, 0 toe rear)

 

up front, i didn't do any mods. in the back, i had some rust work fixed, and i asked the body shop to make the fenderlips thinner. aside from that, the fit with my kosei 15x7 +45mm is perfect. my 15x7 te37's have a +43mm offset, but i only run the 225's up front with the te37's. oh, my car is pretty low, lower than i prefer, but it was cornerweighted and that's how it ended up. it's kinda funny, i scraped my header before the cornerweight, and after the cornerweighting, which ended up lowering it some more, i do not scrape! works for me.
as far as my alighnment is concened, i think i will stick with 0 toe in the back, 1/8 toe out in the front and some neg camber. i want to stable on the track, but for autocross, i can just add some tire pressure in the back to get the rotation i'm looking for.

 

You'd be better off running 225s all around at the correct pressure, and use an adjustable rear swaybar to change the balance.

 

whitney, thanks for the tips. i have a pyrometer, i guess i just have to futz around, then go from there. i drive loose on autocross tracks, but i don't want to be too unstable on the track. so, i guess i'll set up the alighnment for the track, and then just mess with tire pressure for autocross. oh, just so nobody thinks i'm a trash talker, i beat 3 national champs last year (ken f., mike j., and mark d.) in borrowed cars.

 

yes, i agree with you there, but i like to toss the rear out on autocross courses and keep my right foot planted. it seems to work for me, and i get a lower time that way.

 

I wouldn't worry about too much camber or toe...
in an auto-x how often and for how long are you in a straight line..
almost never. There is more turns and much longer time spend in a turn at auto-x

Do what you have to do to get good grip.

I ran max camber (-2 front, -2.6 rear) , 3/16 toe out in the front and zero in the rear. This KILLED my street tires on the the street... but was great for my race tires on the auto-x.

If you really want your car to rotate.. put sticky tires up front and hard tires in the rear

 

Mike, I noticed you drive a BMW. You can get throttle on oversteer to help you rotate. It is generally faster for a fwd car to be 'loose' in the rear. The faster the car can pointed/rotated, the faster we can get back on the gas, etc, etc. It is true that you won't have as much ultimate grip for steady state cornering (carasel (sp) @ Sears Point or T2 @ Thunderhill) Of course, there are limits to what is controllable, and or the better compromise.
I agree with Mike (Whitney) about f & r tire sizes remaining the same. Works better for road courses. It seems to be popular with autox, though. I know that is how they do it in Japan (road courses) but they also don't run the bigger springs in the rear like we do here.