Nytemare

We all know that the inherant differences between B18C1 and C5 motors are great. From the heads, to the crank, to rods, to ports the internal differences go on and on. My question is that I am planning on a DC2/K20 swap next year after the hasports come out and it has been somewhat proven in a couple other cars. So in short I want to know, the differences from K20A1/2. Like obivous things such as film coated pistons and cams I know. Basically I am just tryng to decide whether it would be smarter to spend the extra money on the K20A1. Right now my 96 GSR has a lot of mods and makes 163.9 on a mustang dynomometer and I realized for b-series it would've just been easier to buy a type R. So in short I
want to keep my car and want to know which motor is more worth it.
Thanks alot for the help everyone.

Nytemare

alrght that was longwinded sorry. What are the differences between K20A1 and K20A2 motors? Thanks and peace.

0hybrid racing

There is no such thing as a k20a1 motor...

as for the k20a2 motor that is the rsx type s motor...

if you need any more info or need the mounts and other neccesary parts to place this motor in you ek/eg/dc than email me at will@hybrid-racing.com

thanks hope that helps

NoBottleJustThrottle

dont waste your money on the K20A motor. Sure it has LSD, but a quaife would be better...sure it has more HP and torque, nothing that Hondata cant fix on the K20A2 motor...the gearing is a little different...that and the intake manifold are about the only things that i would want from the K20A motor. Everything else i would rather have aftermarket. Why spend the extra 2 grand on the R motor, when aftermarket parts are just gonna replace a lot of the parts anyways?

brian g

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6spdEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There is no such thing as a k20a1 motor...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'd bet there is one in Europe or SEA.

Anyway the differences between the K20A and K20A2 I remember are:
Cams
Intake manifold
hand ported
valve springs
pistons (more compression)
valve cover
final drive
LSD
possibly rods

Pretty much the same differences you would find between the B18C5 and B18C

brian g

Nytemare

First off thanks for the info. Now I read that the heads were not in fact hand ported on DC5 ITR's. Due to the advancement of Serdi machines since the B's development in the 80's it was no longer necessary to hand port the heads for flow because it was more than adequate. Now, as I understand it the K20A2 is the type S motor first off and the A3 is the Si motor. Now I understand the A2 is the only one to really choose for this project (I took the A1 name simply as deductive logic, if the weakest motor is A3 and midgrade is A2 then well you get the idea). Now I have some main questions about the swap. I know that you and the guys at HaSport are supposed to be coming out with mounts around spring and I have been talking with Tom of Payn Technologies about the swap. My main concern isn't actually the physical mounts, or wiring, for I know those are all from scratch and the mounts will be taken care of as well as the wiring after enough soldering as well as I know you are working on a harness at HaSport and Hondata should have the whole ECU cracked and Tom tuning it by next summer. My main concern is the fuel delivery. As the RSX uses an in-tank return line and regulator that cannot go far above the factory requirements. So with this swap do you use the stock DC2 tank, new pump (walbro with your DC2 modified lines?), and a custom fuel rail with regulator positioned in the engine bay? Or did you swap over the whole fuel system assembly? If so what are you doing so far as raising fuel pressure for the new system, or maybe this is more a tuners territory than HaSport? is anyone working on a replacement assembly and lines or a hood mounted FPR relocator and lines? Also, for the radiator are you as well using a C&R DC2 radiator, I know that Honda overbuilds everything so wont the stock GSR DC2 radiator with FAL's be more than sufficent? It appears to be the preferred radiator in EK's, so I assume a DC2 radiator custom fit in an EK is the one of choice for the DC then as well. What I gathered on honda-tech is that the axles needed are not confirmed but that will be changed shortly, its even worse with some saying EP Si axles and some saying plain old DC2 axle's. As you can see I am very serious and all help would be appreciated. While my swap is a ways off, I want to see when others get the probs sorted out I still want to get all the research together to figure it all out way before the my actual swap. Another big point of contention is the LMA's, I have a CTR cammed GSR with Hondata and I hated having to fork over that kind of money (relative for my high school salary) when I realized it would've been cheaper just to buy the ITR. Also another head issue is the retainers, for I assume they would be different as well and dont know if its worth the money to buy the K20A1 or if I would need to upgrade those retainers as well as the springs anyways. So basically the big issues boil down to axles, fuel system, head work, and radiator. If I forgot anything please correct me. The header is no issue I know that you are working on one and I have a guy that can fab one up. One last thing is the price. I should exepect the mounts to cost about the same as any other mounts but correct me if I am wrong. Thank you very much for your time and have a nice thanksgiving.
Peace,
Bill


Modified by Nytemare at 7:39 PM 11/27/2003

Nytemare

Brian G,
If you want to either ask me any questions about what I asked or correct me, you can also e-mail me a response at DC2FEAK@aol.com
Thanks alot and PEACE!
Happy Thanksgiving

brian g

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nytemare &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So with this swap do you use the stock DC2 tank, new pump (walbro with your DC2 modified lines?), and a custom fuel rail with regulator positioned in the engine bay? Or did you swap over the whole fuel system assembly? If so what are you doing so far as raising fuel pressure for the new system, or maybe this is more a tuners territory than HaSport? is anyone working on a replacement assembly and lines or a hood mounted FPR relocator and lines? Also, for the radiator are you as well using a C&R DC2 radiator, I know that Honda overbuilds everything so wont the stock GSR DC2 radiator with FAL's be more than sufficent? It appears to be the preferred radiator in EK's, so I assume a DC2 radiator custom fit in an EK is the one of choice for the DC then as well. What I gathered on honda-tech is that the axles needed are not confirmed but that will be changed shortly, its even worse with some saying EP Si axles and some saying plain old DC2 axle's. As you can see I am very serious and all help would be appreciated. While my swap is a ways off, I want to see when others get the probs sorted out I still want to get all the research together to figure it all out way before the my actual swap. Another big point of contention is the LMA's, I have a CTR cammed GSR with Hondata and I hated having to fork over that kind of money (relative for my high school salary) when I realized it would've been cheaper just to buy the ITR. Also another head issue is the retainers, for I assume they would be different as well and dont know if its worth the money to buy the K20A1 or if I would need to upgrade those retainers as well as the springs anyways. So basically the big issues boil down to axles, fuel system, head work, and radiator. If I forgot anything please correct me. The header is no issue I know that you are working on one and I have a guy that can fab one up. One last thing is the price. I should exepect the mounts to cost about the same as any other mounts but correct me if I am wrong. Thank you very much for your time and have a nice thanksgiving.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The fuel system is easy. Use the stock fuel pump or equivalent with the stock lines. Put an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator on the firewall with one line to the fuel filter, one to the return and dead end the other into the fuel rail.

As for axles, the 02 Civic Si axles are the corect ones. You can use the Integra ones, but you'll need to change the inner joint on the axle that's inserted into the tranny. Use one from a K20 because the DC inner joint is too short.

The retainers ane springs are probably not an issue if you use Honda ( Type R or Type S) cams and don't rev over 8800.

The problem with using the Integra radiator is the outlet positions. There may be a way to use the stock radiator though. Hasport is in the process of both an EG and a DC swap and if you can use the stock radiator we will sell the hose parts to do it.

We are working on two header packages. One will ustilize the stock K20A cat. of course the K20A cat would have to be modified to connect to the DC exhauxt The other header would connect directly to the stock exhaust omiting the cat. If we decided to seak C.A.R.B. certification, it would be with the first header.

The mounts are actually more expensive than other mount kits because the kit are a little more sophisticated. As an example, our current H22A kit has 5 peices and the new DCK kit will have 8 pieces.

brian g

Nytemare

Wow Brian thanks alot for all the info and this will really help me plan out the swap.
I have two more questions though. First off why is the red EK I saw using the DC radiator? I am going to do this right so whatever radiator you guys decide is best is the one I will use, but if its just lines and hoses then how much do you think that'll be? Secondly, I didn't realize how many pieces the K-DC swap kit was. So taking in an average mount cost of like 100-120 will the DC one be like $800-900? Thanks alot for all the help once again and I cant wait to beat more V8 *** with my "ricer" in good old Detroit city. he he
Peace,
Bill

brian g

We used the C & R Racing RSX radiator because we had one lying around. Had I not had it, I would have used a 99 Si radiator and mounted it on the driver's side of the car. When I put together my DC with the K24 I will try to use the radiator in it. It has a Fluidyne Integra radiator. We'll see if it works.

The kit should sell for a street price of around $649 although MSRP will be more.
Hope you had a Happy Thanksgiving.

brian g

Nytemare

$649 not bad thanks alot for all the help and are there any issues I am not addressing. Oh and how much for the non carb legal header? thanks

Nytemare

sorry I missed the thanksgiving part, I had a great thanksgiving and hope you had the same and all of your family the same. And what are you guys doing abou the OBDII flash? Running Hondata or stock ECU?



Modified by Nytemare at 8:45 PM 11/28/2003

brian g

Thank you,

I believe the new programmable ECU from Hondata will allow you to disable the immobilizer.

No price on the header as of yet but I'll estimate it at $299 to $350.

brian g

Deetz

Brian G, this is a little off topic, but can you help me with supplying Hasport in Canada. I called your guys a week ago and never got back any type of response. The current Canadian supplier never answered thier phone or returned voice mail.

Please get back to me in your free time:
dieter@customauto.ca
Thanks!

Deetz

brian g

I think Todd sent you a package explaining the dealer discounts a couple of days ago. If you don't get something by the end of next week, email me.

brian g

Nytemare

Brian g,
Is Hondata currently working on the current type set up with chipped ECU and parameters box for OBDII? Or more relflash programming? Lastly is there going to be any packaged deal to people who buy all the stuff for the swap? (I.E. Mounts, Wiring Harness, Radiator hoses and couplers, and Header? Thanks again.

brian g

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nytemare &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is Hondata currently working on the current type set up with chipped ECU and parameters box for OBDII? .</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not sure what you mean.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Nytemare &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Lastly is there going to be any packaged deal to people who buy all the stuff for the swap? (I.E. Mounts, Wiring Harness, Radiator hoses and couplers, and Header? Thanks again.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Probably.

brian g

Nytemare

Thanks.
As far as Hondata goes I was just referring to how at the moment due to the OBDII software and sensor package you have to send in your ECU to Hondata to have them re-flash it. I'm not certain of the actual differences in the ECU between OBD I and II i assume due to the extra sensors and evap. controls the ECU goes into limp home mode when someone trys to change it. While the re-flash completely changes all parameters to put an emphasis on bolt ons and maybe ITR cams. Which totally changes all maps not just WOT. As opposed to actully "chipping" the ECU with a ROM program and interface box for full on the fly programming, data-logging, etc. Please someone correct me if I am wrong, because I'm not absolutly sure this is how the system works.
Thats great to know about the possability of a package and thanks for the help and info. Lastly you said you can use civic Si axles like I had heard from "all throttle no bottle" in another post but it never said which Si. I assume the EP but am just asking to make sure.
Thanks again and Peace

NoBottleJustThrottle

yea 2002 Civic Si axles, which are about $900 a piece from factory, or HASport has a replica set that sells for i tihnk about $375 for both. i got the HASport ones.

brian g

Go to the Hondata web site for the official story but they have effectively, total tuning control over the ECU with the exception of boost. They can also switch off any of the OBDII sensors so that it has no control over the fuel maps.

brina g

Nytemare

Thanks for the EP axle info.
Also I didn't even realize Hondata was so close to the OBDII PN and Pr series programmable ECU upgrades. Now boost is even standard as well as data-logging.
The only thing the website doesn't say (and I dont know) is how many of the 12 total maps you actually have to tune for WOT and partial throttle. Oh well, thanks for all the info and if I have any more questions I'll be sure to ask. Thanks for all the help everyone and Brian keep me updated on those prices and release dates.
Peace and Thanks.

Nytemare

Oh and about the radiator I read GSR upper mounts with custom lower and custom hoses, is this correct? Then I couldn't decipher which radiator, "no bottle all throttle" it was you and I didn't understand whether you meant the GSR rad. or RSX, or Si, or which year Si etc. So sorry again which radiator is it. Or can't we just use an OE replacement or Aftermarket RSX unit with new brackets and have it all bolt up?

NoBottleJustThrottle

Brian is tryin to make it to where you dont have to replace the radiator at all, and just use custom hoses...which would be awsome. But if not, if you dont want to keep AC, then 92-95 Civic radiator will work perfectly with the GSR upper hose, and the GSR lower hose with a little trimming. If you want AC, you would have to use either the 2002 Civic Si radiator, or an RSX radiator (not sure which, and they are different). Still not entirely clear on which fans will work, or if slim fans are needed though.

brian g

Not to further confuse the issue, but I don't see any reason you couldn't mount a 92-00 Civic (99-00 Civic Si ideally) radiator on the driver-side of the car and the condensor on the passenger-side and have AC.

brian g

NoBottleJustThrottle

maybe this is some basic thing that im missing, but i honestly dont know...how would the condensor fan mount on the car if the radiator is on the driver-side? Ive only dealt with full sized radiators before, so i dont know if there are holes already or if you have to make custom brackets...?