Hapa88

I just brought my 1993 Civic to the CA State Ref to get certified and smogged and failed the sniffer tests. I also failed because of a missing EVAP Purge valve, which isn't on the JDM engines, but is on the USDM ones (If I passed the sniffer, I would have passed overall, however) . . I'll get one and hook it up. Anyway here's the details.

1997 JDM B18C (probably about 100K miles on it)
USDM P72 OBDI ECU
Stock DX Cat (has 180,000 miles on it)
RSR ExMag Catback
AEM Cold Air Intake for GSR
Ignition measured at 16 BTDC
Ran G2P fuel treatment 2 tanks before the test
Brand new Spark Plugs (Bosch +2 Platinum)
Tech said that the car was running slightly rich

Results:

MAX value | Measured Value

15mph (test done in 2nd gear)
engine RPM = 2018
CO2 = 14.3%
O2 = 0.3%
HC = 89 | 155 (Failed)
CO = .53 | .55 (Failed, barely)
NO = 708 | 1686 (Failed, miserably)

25mph (test done in 3rd gear)
engine RPM = 2307
CO2 = 14.7%
O2 = 0.0%
HC = 54 | 43(Passed)
CO = .51 | .12 (Passed)
NO = 746 | 198 (Passed, easily)

What doesn't make sense to me is the NOx value dropped considerably from 15mph to 25mph and its only 300rpm difference ???

Any suggestions of what to do to get this sucker to pass?

I don't understand why only 300 rpm makes such a huge difference in values. .


~***UPDATE*** - Oct. 25, 2004 *********~
Just got back from the State Ref Center. I passed and am now BAR Certified in the State of California with a JDM B18C. Since the first time I failed, I brought it to a Smog Center they ran all the tests and determined that all I needed was a new CAT. Got a new 2.25" Carsound CAT installed and they adjusted the timing to 13 BTDC, Pre-tested and it passed. The Smog Center also determined that my car doesn't even need the EVAP Purge Valve, which they installed and then took back off! The called the Referee and he OK'ed it.

So I drove it 1000 miles out to Arizona and back to visit the GF. While I was there, picked up another bottle of G2P fuel treatment. Ran it through a tank and dropped in the usual 91 Octane gas and went to the Referee Center. Only thing they noticed was I was 1 quart low on Oil.

Anyway here are the results for reference:


MAX value | Measured Value (last time) | Measured Value (w/ New CAT and 13 DBTDC)

15mph (test done in 2nd gear)
engine RPM = 2018 | 1933
CO2 = 14.3% | 14.8%
O2 = 0.3% | 0.0%
HC = 89 | 155 | 72
CO = .53 | .55 | .14
NO = 708 | 1686 | 420

25mph (test done in 3rd gear)
engine RPM = 2307 | 2240
CO2 = 14.7% | 14.8%
O2 = 0.0% | 0.0%
HC = 54 | 43 | 36
CO = .51 | .12 | .06
NO = 746 | 198 | 151


Modified by Hapa88 at 8:54 PM 10/25/2004

bossman032

HAHA

GOOD LUCK ON GETTING THE NOX DOWN TO PASSING LEVEL

smart monkey

if your car was a si or dx just reuse the stock evap. one other thing you might have to do is use a 94-95 gsr intake man so it matches a 94-95 gsr specs

Hapa88

.<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by smart monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if your car was a si or dx just reuse the stock evap. one other thing you might have to do is use a 94-95 gsr intake man so it matches a 94-95 gsr specs</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thanks. . .I'll look into that. Anyway, the Intake (nor is the visual for that matter) is not the problem its the actual emissions levels that are.

smart monkey

if the visual is not a issue then use the jdm evap if it has one that is suppose to go on top of the intake man and use that. one hose should go to the intake man to evap then the second hose should go to the charcoal canister. the wiring should be all the same.

b19coupe

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hapa88 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Stock DX Cat (has 180,000 miles on it)What doesn't make sense to me is the NOx value dropped considerably from 15mph to 25mph and its only 300rpm difference ???
I don't understand why only 300 rpm makes such a huge difference in values. .
</TD></TR></TABLE>
At 15mph, the vehicle is under much more of a load. I think it's 15/50 and 25/25. In other words 15mph/50% load---25mph at 25% load.
One thing I can almost guarantee is that your cat is dead.
If you bump your timing back to about 12 degrees BTDC and run premium, that will help your NOX somewhat, but not enough to pass. Along with a new cat though, you might just make it

Wes V

Do a search for, and talk to "droppedcrxsi". (his real name is Ryan) He is dealing with much the same issue with his JDM B18C powered CRX. It passes the Referee visual and yet doesn't pass the sniffer. (close but no cigar)

What transmission are you using? I got my B18C EF pass the referee, but it's a USDM engine and I have the LS geared YS1 transmission.

Wes

bossman032

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wes V &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What transmission are you using? I got my B18C EF pass the referee, but it's a USDM engine and I have the LS geared YS1 transmission.

Wes</TD></TR></TABLE>

that might best help because it might not pass if you change the cat trust me on this

hndarcrb18c1

Put a brand new cat in right before you go works for me everytime....

Qfactor

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hapa88 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

15mph (test done in 2nd gear)
engine RPM = 2018
HC = 89 | 155 (Failed)
CO = .53 | .55 (Failed, barely)
NO = 708 | 1686 (Failed, miserably)

25mph (test done in 3rd gear)
engine RPM = 2307
HC = 54 | 43(Passed)
CO = .51 | .12 (Passed)
NO = 746 | 198 (Passed, easily)

</TD></TR></TABLE>

can you post the O2 and CO2 numbers that helps alot too. btw if the your engine was running rich that extra gas would cool your combustion chamber. in your case you're running lean, to a point that you're not burning your mixture thus creating high combustion temperatures and causing detonation(HC's) and some unburned gas(CO). most likely your C02 @15/50 is about 13.3-13.6% and O2 is about 1.2-1.8%. if you have O2 at any given point means that you're not burning all of the O2, CO2 is a good combustion efficiency indicator of how the engine is running the higher the better.



Modified by Qfactor at 8:58 PM 9/4/2004

Hapa88

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Qfactor &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

can you post the O2 and CO2 numbers that helps alot too. btw if the your engine was running rich that extra gas would cool your combustion chamber. in your case you're running lean, to a point that you're not burning your mixture thus creating high combustion temperatures and causing detonation(HC's) and some unburned gas(CO). most likely your C02 @15/50 is about 13.3-13.6% and O2 is about 1.2-1.8%. if you have O2 at any given point means that you're not burning all of the O2, CO2 is a good combustion efficiency indicator of how the engine is running the higher the better.

Modified by Qfactor at 8:58 PM 9/4/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hmm. . .ok. O2 was 0.3% @ 15mph and 0.0% at 25mph.
CO2 was at 14.3% and 14.7% respectively. . . so I guess I'm getting pretty good combustion and therefore thats not the problem?

Wes V

I'd kind of like to know if the problem with JDM B18C's is that they have a different set of cam shafts than what is in a USDM B18C. I don't know, and it's just a question.

Wes.

Hapa88

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Wes V &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd kind of like to know if the problem with JDM B18C's is that they have a different set of cam shafts than what is in a USDM B18C. I don't know, and it's just a question.

Wes.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't think the cams are any different, but the compression ratio is.

Hapa88

so does everyone agree that a new CAT would solve most of my problems? would a High Flow cat work? I don't want to shell out to purchase a High flow unit if its not going to lower the emissions enough to pass. . .

bossman032

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hapa88 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so does everyone agree that a new CAT would solve most of my problems? would a High Flow cat work? I don't want to shell out to purchase a High flow unit if its not going to lower the emissions enough to pass. . .</TD></TR></TABLE>

won't help getting a new cat.

some jdm/usa motors produce very high nox and some produce very low nox.
really nothing you can do to solve the nox problem.

SLow-Side

The only thing I could think of is to add two more cats to your existing exhaust system and you're set.... anyone else agree???

b19coupe

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civiclizeEg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The only thing I could think of is to add two more cats to your existing exhaust system and you're set.... anyone else agree???</TD></TR></TABLE>
Disagree.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hapa88 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Stock DX Cat (has 180,000 miles on it)
</TD></TR></TABLE>

The cat is dead. Get a new cat, change the oil, bump the timing back to about 12 degrees BTDC, run premium, and retest.

bossman032

your cat is fine dude.

this is not change your cat and you will pass a cat will do its best it cant do everything ur cat is very good

the problem is your motor not cat o2 blah blah blah...

SLow-Side

Well if a cat aint gonna help then I guess its time for a rebuild. I am not saying that you should go do it though.

Most jdm importers will tell you straight up that all jdm motors will not pass smog and all the jdm motors that they sell are around 40k. But I have seen jdm motors pass the sniffer test . I guess it depends on the motor.

So if 40k on a jdm motor is bad for smog then 100k on the jdm motor will be really bad .

Just a thought...

AMS MIKE

Its OBd1 so you can use an aftermarket cat as long as its CARRB approved.

I passed with a Magnaflow Car Sound Cat part #93501.

What you need is a LARGE cat and make sure you keep the car warm before they test it and you are set!

ALSO run 87 octane gas.....it does help because it will burn faster and will lower your Nox

Hapa88

Ok, I went to a muffler shop and the guy there said that my CAT is probably ok. . . he didn't look at it, but said if it passed at 25 mph then its probably fine, its just not getting warm enough. . .

He also said that I should switch out my new Bosch Platinum +2 plugs and put back in the copper ones. I guess those cause more problems then they solve. This was interesting to me, since the car seems to drive smoother. . I guess I'll just get some NGK coppers, cuz they're cheap. . .

Also, I hear conflicting information about Octane. Some say use 87. Others say use 91 or even Race gas. Whats the deal? My friend says that 87 octane offers more combustion power per unit of gas than 91.
However higher octane gas usually has more "filler" added to it, therefore there is less gas to actually combust which ultimately means less emissions per unit of gas.

So does anyone actually KNOW? or is this just what everyone hears?

AMS MIKE

Usually you will pass at 25mph, Thats the easy part. Its passing at 15mph that is the harder part.

Here is the easy fix to lower NOX...

1.) car sound cat #93501 (its a large cat, more meat inside the cat less NOX)
2.) 87 octane gas
3.) make sure the car is WARM before you do the 15mph test

Easy as that. I have been doing this for a long time for customers getting their cars BAR'd

-Mike

bossman032

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AMS MIKE &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Usually you will pass at 25mph, Thats the easy part. Its passing at 15mph that is the harder part.

Here is the easy fix to lower NOX...

1.) car sound cat #93501 (its a large cat, more meat inside the cat less NOX)
2.) 87 octane gas
3.) make sure the car is WARM before you do the 15mph test

Easy as that. I have been doing this for a long time for customers getting their cars BAR'd

-Mike</TD></TR></TABLE>

its not that easy not all motors pass these high compression motors have trouble pass nox most honda if its lower compression thats another story why u think usa don't have a 11:1:0 itr huh??

smog hello

AMS MIKE

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bossman032 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

its not that easy not all motors pass these high compression motors have trouble pass nox most honda if its lower compression thats another story why u think usa don't have a 11:1:0 itr huh??

smog hello </TD></TR></TABLE>

That is why the 87 octane and the LARGER cat will help lower the NOX.

iakona

so the "two bottles of fuel injector cleaner in a 1/4 tank" thing wouldn't help here either? or is that just some more crap that i've heard?