What are the "actual" bad ramifcations of not stagering the wheels? I have heard alot about it's bad and what not but how and why? I have noticed alot of people running same sized wheels and stagered tires (i.e. 17x7 with 215 in front and 235 in back). And please post facts not "well i can tell I lost traction because my butt told me so". I would accept actual laptimes recorded as slower (as an average), but must be documented.

 

Plain and simple it will affect the way the vehicle handles. There are various scenarios that will all be different, depending on how you did, or did not, stagger the wheels.

If you stagger them by a gap greater than 1.0", you may have severe understeer. The rear tires will overpower the front, causing understeer.

If you run the same size wheel and tire in the front and rear, you will probably not beable to handle well because of oversteer.

I don't know why you will only "accept" documented laptimes, it will affect street driving just as much as a track car.

 

I'm trying to keep the less technical post out. I want actual proven information, not "because I felt a loss".

Not trying to be a dick. Only trying to have informative post with actual knowledge.

 

Chances are, if someone tracks their car enough to have proof to give you, their running a staggerd setup anyways, or the characteristics of their car and driving would not apply to your own, since im pretty sure you dont track your car much if at all...thus kind of making track proof moot.

 

I've owned my S2 for 4 months and tracked it twice. I plan on going more. I've raced my Civic (road courses) for 2 years. The S2 is a different kind of car and I'm trying to understand why and what changes have what effects. That is if that's okay with you.

The S2 is a track car. That's one reason I bought it.

I thrist for knowledge. I want to know as much as I can and I soak up the good stuff like a sponge. So the more I can read and learn from others the better. I prefer not to read stuff that has no point or is already proven to be bad or fake.

On of the problems with most people and companies is that they don't test enough. Yeah yeah it cost money I know. I would test if I had the money to blow.
Why not show the people why?

:removed:


Modified by qi_doy at 7:27 PM 7/6/2005

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hypnosisracing, take you snoud comment and shove it up you @$$.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wow man, kind of aggresive huh? I wasnt trying to be "snide" with you, and as you said, you dont track your S2000 on any regular basis...the point of my comment was, if you dont constantly track your S2000, why do you want facts based solely on track information and usage? Im guessing 80%+ of the time your car is on the street...which would indicate to me that a better isolated type of feedback would be the results of said situations on the street...or during "Spirited" driving on back roads, mountain roads, etc. Now i mean if you want me to shove my comments up my ***, lol...whatever, i wasnt trying to offend you or anything, i was just commenting on the fact that it seemed like you wanted NOTHING but track proof and feedback, when (as you've said) your car will primarily not see that kind of condition, making the request for ONLY that kind of information kind of moot dont you think?

That and a majority of the members here who own S2000's are in the same boat, driving their cars on the street most of the time, and maybe tracking them sporadically...in no way really justifying a "track only" response ya know?

Relax man...dont take what i say personally or anything, i dont know you and probobly never will...vice versa, im just here to discuss and talk, not to ruffle feathers of people that seem to actually want to legitimately talk, and not just discuss 1/4 times and why the S2000 doesnt have any torque.

 

Point taken. The reason I want "track proof" is that data is better to judge from then "street data".

Whether who drives on the street or track only, as I would guess almost no one on here has a track only S2, is moot. The point I'm trying to make is you can prove anything on street or "spirited" driving. But tracking or even auto-xing can prove theories or disprove them. Hence the reason I asked for track proof. I'd rather listen to someone who tracks and has 2 setups for their car then the person who once a year tracks their car but swears by buddy club coil-overs cause they know they are faster on the "touge".

The newbs wear on me and it's that time of year when all the kids out of class asking stupid questions and posting dumbass comments that make a sane person go crazy.

Dig?

 

this might come off as harsh, but I can all but guarantee there is no one here that neither has, nor is willing to test this effect out.

So, why do you fullfil your everlasting thirst for knowledge, and go do some testing for yourself. Give youself the staisfaction of testing different wheel setups on an s2k for yourself. Otherwise, this thread is going to be another useless waste of server space on Honda-Tech.

 

I could do that. But I don't have money to go blow on rims.
I was hoping that there was someone in this fourm that had used the same size wheel (and possible tire) and had experience they could give.
I have seen plenty of rims for sale on here and other sites for S2's that are the same size. Maybe they used a different tire size but none the less the rim size was the same.

It doesn't hurt to ask. Though my wording in asking was harsh, I was trying to keep the less informed "because I think so" post out of this discussion.

You got rims to give me to try out and test and prove or disprove theories, send them my way. I'll give you a written article with as much technical data as I can collect. But until I win the lotto, I won't be able to fund that testing myself. Which is why I asked.

 

I have run both staggered and non-staggered wheels setups...Believe me, I have gone through a few pairs of shoes for the S. It doesn't matter whether it was on the track or on the street, there was a significant amount of traction loss with the non-staggered setup.

I don't have actual lap times like you would like, but when you have put on the 85K+ miles on the S like I have, you tend to know these things...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hypnosisracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Chances are, if someone tracks their car enough to have proof to give you, their running a staggerd setup anyways, or the characteristics of their car and driving would not apply to your own, since im pretty sure you dont track your car much if at all...thus kind of making track proof moot.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Agreed.

Even making a good laptime takes a good driver and back to back, equally setup cars. But even setting up a car with non-staggard wheels, you'll need to make other adjustments to compensate for that in order to get a balanced feel. That means, no more understeer or no more oversteer to compensate for. Just a well balanced car.

By having a balanced car, you can get the most out of the car. By having an ill-handling car, you will not be able to get the most out of it because you are fighting for control of the car on an additional level than the tires giving left and right. The lap times would suffer, but for a lap time to be the conclusive reason why you should or should not go non-staggard? That isn't the reason at all. It comes down to balance and safety.

 

I've tracked my S quite a bit and other S2000's as well. I have yet to have a student with a non-staggard setup. The only thing that came close was a guy at MSR (not my student and it's been a few years ago) who had his 7500 mile service done. You know: oil change and rotate the wheels. Yea, I caught it and we swapped them quickly.

 

there are more than a few companies in Japan running a non-staggered setup. I've been doing a lot of research on this. A non-staggered setup on stock suspension will cause a problem. However, a properly setup non-staggered setup can and will most likely be faster. If you want to increase cornering speed, you increase traction. Its pretty obvious that a wider tire is a way to do that. The main reason for a staggered setup on the S2000 is to provide more traction to the rear tires...however, we all know the car isn't exactly a tire spinning torque monster. Lighting up a set of 255 series tires on an N/A F20C isn't easy. So why not run the widest stickiest tires you can fit at every corner? It makes sense if you have a 235/255 setup vs. a 255/255 setup (like Amuse or J's) its obvious the front is gonna have more grip on the 255/255 setup. Now, if you set up the roll bars/spring rates accordingly, you have a very neutral car that can respond to a variety of inputs from the driver when he/she needs it to oversteer or understeer. This flexibility makes it fast on a race course. Its a lot easier to make a 255/255 setup neutral and grip better than any staggered setup. I know you can run a 275 in back, but that requires a lot of fender work, and, since you can't fit it up front, you have to work harder at getting a neutral setup...but this all applies to a driver capable of calling upon over/understeer when they want. I, for one, will just pick up a set of '04 wheels and do a staggered setup with stock suspension. After I reach the limit of the stock suspension, I will bump up to a 255/255 setup and coilovers with sway bars to setup a neutral car. You can also rotate your tires, so its a little cheaper/easier. In the end, its all up to driver preference.

-Andrew


Modified by Cone at 7:50 PM 7/16/2005