After reading and searching all over this site and all over the internet, and talking with a few friends, I am still undecided. Let me post my problem.

Have a nice 4th gen SI. Great car. Love it alot more that my previous Integra but, I am torn on what to do with it. Like most people on here, I am not happy with the car in its current state. I have thought about boosting a stock H23. Thought about building up an H23. I have also thought about hybriding H23/ VTEC. Thought about an JDM H22 swap, and also about a USDM H22 with my H23 transmission.

My goals.
I am not a track *****, and my car should not be either. I am not looking for the cheapest solution, and I am not looking for the fastest solution either, my most important concern is reliability. I drive to school, and don't live that close to home so I want the car to be there when I need it. Also, I have to be low key about it. Since my Integra was stolen at school where I live, its can't be flashy, with an intecooler hanging out the front.
I want to car to be faster, no specific power goal either. With turbo I wouldn't boost above 8-10 psi, but I could always build the motor up. The car has around 93k.

Idealy I would like advice as to reliability. Price is not an issue, but it can't be a huge motor build up to boos the hell out of the engine either. I would like advice towards general upgrades. I have searched around, and know about all of my options, and how to go about them, jsut looking for individual responses. Everytime I get a good idea about my car, something equally negative turns up. There is a downside to all this I know. Gas milage is an issue, but a minor one. Would an H22 transmission affect it at all, and why is using an H23 transmission bad or not as effective as an H22?

I know this was lenghty but is anyone would post advive, I would graceful.

 

I think it's really not as hard as you're making it out to be:

As far as speed, the main ideas for more power are in a nutshell, NA, boost, nitrous.

Since dependibility is definitely an issue, I would not go with turboing a stock anything, although it can be done, but also turbo there will probably be bigger down time with the install.
As far as I can tell, (not from experience) , nitrous installs seem to be simpler, and will give you a good power mod, as long as you are smart and reasonable, and it should be reliable for the occasional juice.
NA isn't always reliable like a lot of people think, and can be more difficult than a turbo setup because of the harder power gains, and downtime is great as well, and expensive.

You need to start reading up on what you really want, because there are a jack load of sources for that info here, and just plan a goal, and stick with it, and before u know it, u got a pimp ride. But from the sounds of it, I'd stick with some bolt on's a small wet shot of N2O, all which can be kept on the DL.

 

My built NA motor get 27mpg if that means anything to ya.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by satan_srv &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My built NA motor get 27mpg if that means anything to ya.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't have a fully built block, but just a fully built head. It's tuned and it gets over 30mpg on the freeway (if i'm cruising at 70mph)

 

Ok

N20 I am not a fan of. I want power all the time. With the Nitrous, I would be tempted to use it, but I have no need for it because I do not generally do 1/4 times.

Its either a toss up right now between a built H23 for turbo or an H22 built NA.
I already have the H23 so I might stick with that. I really do not want to jsut get rid of the whole thing when I have something to work with though.
With JDM motors, I have heard stories about people getting screwed, but I have heard good things as well. Is there any compadibility issues with a JDM motor when it comes to gas available here in this country? Anyone have a JDM motor...How does it run? Where did you get it? How long you have it? Also, I was looking for info on boosted H23's becasue there seems to be a shortage on that as well.
As for absic bolts on...they do not really interest me because that is all you see on everyone's car. Not to knock anyone's thing but, I don't think I want to spend $ on header/exhaust before I even have a final plan as to what I will do. I am not going to waste money. Well thought out is the plan here. I can't have anything fall apart.

Again, any info is welcome.

 

i would turbo the h23, but then again if you want instant power
with reasonal reliability, and you don't want the car to be flashy
w/a big intercooler in the front, do the h22 swap.
then again you can paint the intercooler black

 

personally i would go with a turbo h23, for the money spent on the h22 swap you could have a bought a turbo kit. If originality is an issue then the turbo'ed h23 isn't as common as a h22 lude.

but to answer your q's

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stareatsun &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
why is using an H23 transmission bad or not as effective as an H22?

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm guessing you are referring to using an h23 tranny with a h22. It s not ideal because you will fall out of vtec on the 1-2 upshift. so i've read here on H-T, no first hand experience.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stareatsun &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Is there any compadibility issues with a JDM motor when it comes to gas available here in this country? </TD></TR></TABLE>

No a jdm h22a is 10.6.1 compression ratio so you will be fine with 93 (or 91) octane gas. Which you would use on a usdm h22 anyway. The JDM type s H22A is 11.1, which would be fine on pump gas as well but should be tuned IMO.

Good luck.

 

There is nothing wrong with useing a JDM ecu, with US gas.... Japans 98 octane = U.S 93 octane

 

You're going to have to make some compromises w/ your goals.

Power all the time: n/a or boost.
Going n/a is expensive for little power gains. Turbo is not too reliable (usually) and is flashy.

Not flashy: n/a or nitrous
Nitrous is cheap and reliable, but you say you want constant power.

I don't see why you don't think nitrous is a good answer. It's very reliable, cheap, not flashy, and is always there, just when you need it.

 

I realize there are many hard decisions to make. there is a little thing that i like to go by, :: Fast, reliable, cheap you have to chose 2.

at this point from what i have heard i don't think that you will be happy just buying an h22 long block and being stuck with the h23s long gear ratios. also i agree with you on the nitrous thing, if im going to pay for a mod i don't want it to be "refillable" , not knocking on anyone or anything. But there are tubo options that won't have a huge intercooler sticking out of the front bumper.

I mean you have to think about goals. Hp and reliablity and money are all things to take into consideration. You could always do a junkyard old school eclipse setup and maybe run 5psi without and intercooler and that might be enough hp for you. or you could use a junk yard setup up the boost and run an air/water cooler.

Then there is always the n/a. did you ever think about just putting type s pistons in, and then looking into some aftermarket cams for the h23? i mean the way i look at it is you have to make some descisions, as to wether you want to lean toward n/a or boost. i don't think that you will be happy with just an h22 swap and keeping the h23 tranny. and if you were to dump the money for a comprele h22 swap thats alot of $.

the only thing i wish i couls answer would be how an h23/vtec would behave with an h23 tranny.

 

First off Tom, you know me. Duh.

Second off, I realize I have to make a decision about NA or boost because as of right now, I have no clue. Maybe a few more days of thinking about it and it will come to me. I have thought about a small turbo/junkyard setup and 5ps5 is nothing that an H23 can't handle, and I would not even need an intercooler or anything. I realize that using a H23 tranny with anything but an H23 is probably not a good diea. I aso thought about an H22 complete swap but there is not much in the way of power for close to 2k. Although that would be the platform that I would built a nasty car from, not necessarily an h23, unless I want to boost the **** out of it.
Right now, the turbo sounds good, but something small that might be upgradable. I will have hondata or EMS i assume. God to have quality though, can't be cheap and break stuff. Get back to me.

 

you could get an h22 and supercharge it and tune it, ive heard that those are a little more reliable than turbo, dont know forsure though

 

If reliability is important I wouldn't touch a turbo, supercharger, and least of all nitrous.

So then you're left with a few options like intake, exhaust and other engine work.

I've actually debated this same sort of question. I've thought of making my car faster. But the more I read about it the less interested I was in doing anything. Everything out there will cause additional wear, regardless of what people say. Especially if you're going to push the car more than normal to really experience the mods.

I have a friend who replaced intake, header and exhaust. He notices a difference, but only minimal. On the dynograph there's definitely a boost in top end power, but a loss of torque. And although his car sounds very aggressive, the constant buzzing has made him self-conscious and it gets extremely annoying. And it doesnt help that he keeps being challenged by every ricer on the road. Its gotten to a point where he's considered removing all his mods.

It always ends up being a trade off. To gain one thing you lose something else. And worst of all doing mods can get very expensive.

So, in the end I decided that it wasn't worth to trouble and expense. I spend enough in taxes, insurance, and maintenance to worry about getting mods. The most I'd be interested in is upgrading my suspension.

For me, expense is a secondary problem. Then there's reliability and drivability. I dont want to shorten the life of my car any more than I need to. This is particularly important since this is my daily driver. If I had a second car, then its another story.

And as for making the car faster, its all relative. If you're a good driver you'll fare well with a stock car. And you can modify your car as much as you like, but so can everyone else out there, and you're always going to find that your car isn't as fast as you'd like it to be. And when it comes down to it, if you really wanted that kind of performance you'd probably need a different car altogether.

Performance doesn't make one car better than another. If you like what you've got then that's what is important. I wouldnt worry too much about anything else.

When it comes down to it, you can do what you'd like. But based on what you've mentioned I'd recommend not doing anything; at least not anything major.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaWeiTao &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If reliability is important I wouldn't touch a turbo, supercharger, and least of all nitrous.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

That right there made me totally disregard your entire post, simply b/c you obviously know little about power adders.

EDIT - read through, you made some good points, but bad advice.

 

My advice to you is to get yourself a good repair manual and do a rebuild on your h23. Take your head into a machine shop and have it reconditioned and port and polished. Get some cams and gears to fine tune the orchestration of the valve train. Free up the air flow w/ a good exhaust, high flow cat or test pipe, header, and intake. Top this all off w/ a SAFC and a trip to the dyno and you'll end up w/ the power on demand your looking for and knowledge of your vehicle that will last you a lifetime!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PhazedSI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Take your head into a machine shop and have it reconditioned and port and polished. Get some cams and gears to fine tune the orchestration of the valve train. !</TD></TR></TABLE>

the h23 head flows pretty good from the get go
and all the cams are regrinds.
sounds like a waste of money unless you already have
done everything else to it

 

Actually, The H23 is starting to look like a good option for an n/a build. Over on preludeonline.com, there's a thread obout how Crower's starting a cheap line of H23 cams and retainer/spring kits.

A great idea and what I would have done had my H23 not died, would be to grab a set of JDM H22 pistons, new H23 rods, bearings, water pump, belt, etc. and do a slight rebuild and throw in the Crowers and a lightweight flywheel . The H22's would put compression way up there, which would be great w/ the big cams. And balance the bottom end.

That's another safe option for you.

 

Rebuilding the H23 is a good idea. Although with work done to it, is it and can it be right up there with a properly built H22? I was thinking at this point that turbo is a bad idea for me and my needs as far as a daily driver and down time. I was thinking about an JDM H22 swap but only for a few seconds. I was actually thinking of a Complete USDM H22 more. If anyone knows where I can get one is good shape that would be great. Seeing as how the JDM version is in higher supply, I might have a hard time finding this but, I would build up this engine, not to be a track star as I have already stated but, Stuf that I could do that would not necessarily require a standalone EMS or other such simmilar device.

Anymore info on that H23 built at preludeonline.com would be helpful though. Thanx.

Adam

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MaWeiTao &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If reliability is important I wouldn't touch a turbo, supercharger, and least of all nitrous.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
your kidding right? how many cars out there have turbo nitrous and superchargers? and you consider ALL those unreliable. I didn't think so. reliability is a matter of how much brain work you put into building your car.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
if you really wanted that kind of performance you'd probably need a different car altogether. </TD></TR></TABLE>
different car!? do you ven own a lude? they have very great potential for high HP. and im quite sure adam is happy with his lude.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Performance doesn't make one car better than another. If you like what you've got then that's what is important. I wouldnt worry too much about anything else.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
but thats what hes trying to say, he loves his car and he want to make it better. adams not trying to make a lude so he can race every ricer in the world. it just for him. hes not looking for some sick power adder, or even a car that will be sick on the strip. hes just looking for a little more.

adam i wouldn't be so quck to rule out a 5 psi turob setup. I realy thing a junkyard dsm with a 14b or 25t at 5 psi not intercooled would give a good 40+ hp, and thats probably more than your going to see if you did an h22 swap, and more than adding cams to your h23. if you planed all out well enough, i think you and i could gett everything up and runing in one day. that is provided we have a ll the corect stuff. ive looked very extensivly into boosting out ludes, and i think 5.5 would be very conservative, and would make you happy. but i am a boost junky, so if n/a is the way you want to go, ill still be there ripping ito that bad boy with you


edit: 700 post mo fo

 

wow

 

If you want reliability, I'd go with the JDM H22 swap and add all of the bolt ons...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SKDRCR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

the h23 head flows pretty good from the get go
and all the cams are regrinds.
sounds like a waste of money unless you already have
done everything else to it</TD></TR></TABLE>

And you have dyno plots of your h23 before and after headwork and cams? Have you ever owned regrinds? Just becuase they are regrinds you assume they are ****? Yes some regrinds have their problems just stick w/ Gude or Paeco Industries. And yes Crower is making cams for the h23 now. I beleive this is his best route and I think you should save your comments until you have experience w/ this setup. I do.

 

h23a1 w/ 60 dry shot
182.53 whp and 191.98 wtq
i got the NOS dry system for $530
a wet kit would be better. but more $ i think.
a h-t member mentioned that someone w/ i/h/e pull 160whp.


you say that you want something reliable and the NOS kit, believe it or not, is.
you only use it when you need to and you wont be stressing out the engine.
it is only like $26 dollars to refill.

hope it was helpfull. lates.

 

Yes, the H23 head can be made to flow just as much air as an H22 head. Talk w/ XES, if you don't believe me.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SKDRCR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

the h23 head flows pretty good from the get go
and all the cams are regrinds.
sounds like a waste of money unless you already have
done everything else to it</TD></TR></TABLE>

Also when a head is reconditioned, the valve springs are checked and shimmed or replaced if needed, valve seals are replaced which is needed because after 100k they become very dry and crack and oil seeps through into the cylinders. The valve job is also included to mate the surfaces for best sealing. This is usually just a single angle but you can get up to a 4 angle job. 50% of a heads flow characteristics is acheived through the proper sealing of the valves. The head is also acid dipped I beleive (they may use a different procedure) and comes back to you looking better than new.