I have been reading into Tuning obd2 more lately. In IL we cannot pass emissions with obd1 on an obd2 setup. Well, a lot of my local guys drive 5th gens, so I wanted to dig.(I also own a 99 GS-R that MAY have a future in California, although my current understanding is that obd2 B series motors DO NOT have this issue, dizzy on intake side?)
Previously it was said that you cannot tune cam gears with obd2 H22s. Aparrently this is NOT the case. I was in touch with AznBlueBoy about his friends 240whp Obd2 SH running Greddy E-Manage.
TypeS+S2P2+RDX inj. setup
He asked his friend about it, and this was his reply to me.
Thanks for the updated info AznBB!

DISCUSS............................

 

ultimate is a standalone. cant compare that with using an OEM computer, even a tuned one.

i imagine he didnt have a problem because the algorithm or coding they used took into account differences in what the CYP and CKP/TDC are seeing when changing cam timing.

 

I think you are possibly confused on this statement and actually mean exhaust cam (since thats the cam the dizzy is connected to) That would also correlate to may past experience that the Pro2's respond well to advancing the exhaust cam. The intake cam has no say in anything besides when the intake valves open.

The exhaust cam just needs to be in "sync" with the crankshaft, so if you advance or retard the the cam gear you will need to rotate the dizzy in the same direction to match. Timing is coming from the crankshaft in an obd2 setup, but the dizzy is used to determine wether a cylinder is on its compression stroke or its exhaust stroke.

In one cylcle (720 degrees of rotation) the ecu sees 16 pulses from the crankshaft and 1 pulse from the dizzy, the pulse from the dizzy needs to "line up" with a pulse from the crank and that happens only once every 720 degrees. If these dont pulse at the same time then the ecu thinks something is wrong and throws the code. The way you get around this is if you adjust one then you adjust the other to match.

Something else to keep in mind is that when you start dealing with aftermarket parts they sometimes arent as accurate as oem parts. In other words if you take a perfectly running obd2 engine and throw some adjustable cam gears on and set them to zero they may not be exactly where the oem gears were. The keyway in the gear could be off a degree or so and the markings on the gear itself may not even be 100 percent accurate either. The problem multiplies when you add cams, with another keyway that could be out of location just slightly and then another keyway on the far end to drive the dizzy. All these little manufacturing tolerances can add together and right out of the gate you could be off enough to throw a code. The tricky part then is getting it back in sync. Even if you had the fancy equipment to be able to see these pulses on a computer screen they would go by so fast that it would be difficult to dial in. The way to do it would be to just adjust the dizzy little by little until the car starts or the code goes away. This could take alot of patience and in my opinion is where people have given up and claimed that it can't be done.


BTW tell your friend good job and that 240hp is kickass from an SH lude!!

 

so you just removed the lower dizzy bolt and rotated it in the same direction you move the exhaust cam and you didnt run into a problem?

you just need to be able to adjust ECU timing to compensate for the changes

good topic.

 

Timing should be coming straight off the crank on an obd2 motor and not the dizzy. (from the 8 teeth on the back of the balancer shaft pulley) The cam sensor in the dizzy is just to tell the ecu when #1 is at TDC on the compression stroke.

 

yes, i understand. However, the ecu knows what window of crank degrees it should be reading when the cam sensor strikes cyl1 TDC. If there are discrepancies, the ecu will throw a cylinder position code everytime.

so really, in order to make up for changes made to the cams, the distributor needs to be moved in the same direction as the ex cam to remove the discrepancies. This will change the base timing and you need a tunable ecu to be able to make up for the timing changes.

whats weird is back when i first put the crower cams in the h22a, i got a CYP code because the exh cam was off. I tried moving the distributor but the code would not clear.

 

That is correct. I dont think it was ever a myth that the OBD2 H22 couldnt be tuned, it is simply easier and cheaper to tune an engine with an adjustable distributor. Much like it is easier and cheaper to tune a vehicle with a cable actuated throttle vs. DBW.

 

But how is that changing the base timing? As far as the ecu is concerned nothing has changed if the ignition signals are coming from the crank mounted sensor and the cam sensor falls into that "window" unless theres something I'm not aware of. The ignition should be coming off the 8 teeth on the balancer belt pulley and that position is fixed.

On an obd1 setup the only reason timing changes when you rotate the distributor is because you are also rotating all three sensors at the same time inside the dizzy. In an obd2 setup those are keyed to the crank and theres no adjustment there. They are always in the same position relative to the crankshaft/piston.

I remember our conversations about your Crowers back in the day, it still bugs me today why we couldnt get that to work lol. I have seen cams that were quite a ways off, the RM cams I ran for a short time were not even close to where they should have been when I degreed them in. I wonder how big this "window" is to allow these to sync up?

 

I believe you are over complicating this. On the OBD2 H22, the ECU gets signals from the crankshaft for timing and simply uses the distributor to verify TDC and expects these to be in sync. If you adjust the cam gear say +5 degrees, you have now moved the shaft within the distributor +5 degrees and need to adjust the DISTRIBUTOR HOUSING +5 degrees to match. This way the CKP and CYP sensors from the crankshaft are syncronized with the TDC sensor in the distributor.

 

You are correct. The dizzy is connected to the exhaust cam since we actually popped his hood today and looked at it. Anyways, it doesn't make too much of a difference because we're just talking about the dizzy and tuning cam gears.
Hes making nearly 240whp. I think it was 235whp or so but he believes it can make a lot more power if it wasnt an SH.

You've actually dealt with him. I don't know if you remember but his name is Andrew and he bought a euro r manifold from you and hes also from Vancouver. This is years ago when it was done. So maybe you recall talking to him.

 

Interesting discussion. I admittedly don't know the tuning side as much as I want yet, but I've been wondering about this myself. I figured once I wanted to tune the exhaust cam, I would drop in an OBD1 dizzy with an dizzy adapter harness and as mentioned rotate the dizzy the same as the exhaust cam so the sensor signals match up.

My limited knowledge wonders since the dizzy rotor is directly linked to the exhaust cam, if that would be changing the ignition timing in any way. On the flipside, the rotor obviously has a large contact surface and therefore a window in which to hit the timing based on the the signal being sent by the coil.

I will say from experience that the P5P ecu at least is forgiving of CYP/CPK sensor discrepancies. I've had the exhaust cam off by at least 1 if not 2 teeth (stock motor/stock gears) when doing a t-belt change one time and never threw a code after driving it around for a day (I don't know off hand what that translates to in degrees, but certainly a few I would imagine).

I just checked the eManage Ultimate install guide (someday I'll actually get mine installed) and while it does take cam and crank sensor inputs, it does not have those outputs so it looks like it won't provide an offset to the ecu. If they rotated the exhaust cam +6 degrees, it only seems logical that the P5P ecu just doesn't care. In that case, it does make you wonder what the point of even having that feature of OBD2 present is if it allows that kind of offset.

 

Its NOT that you couldn't tune it, there has always been issues/debate with tuning the cam gears, thus making installing aftermarket cams un/less effective, and diverting people from even taking their valve cover off, giving up with i/h/e(We can avoid bottom end builds for now) For those with obd2 setups that don't have emissions testing to worry about, obd2 was tossed in the dumpster with todays trash......

While the other guys in this thread are digging even deeper than I, this is my simple break down of what info I was originally looking for.

Excuse the wind, I have been thinking about this for a couple weeks after a local member and I were discussing some fairly simple yet effective mods he could do without having Legality/local emissions issues. I don't even own an obd2 H22, but was faced with curiousity. I couldn't swallow that obd2 h22s couldn't be MORE while retaining obd2. I had pretty much told someone that the fun wouldn't go far with obd2 because of limited options for tuning, and AznBB stabbed with me, my friends SH makes 240whp. BANG my brain started clicking a little more.
I have constantly heard people over the years when faced with obd2 and emissions just say; Well, just swap to obd1 and when you have to pass emissions, swap back? Ok, here lies the problem; If you've gotten to a point where you would NEED obd1 for tuning, swapping back to obd2 and being able to get the car running isn't exactly possible in some cases. Sure, if you swapped to obd1 with i/h/e so you could tune even better than a vafc, COOL. You're all good. You kept stock compression/cams and you're not someone that this would even apply to......Now, if you're like the above mentioned guy, with higher compression/meaner cams/intake manifold mods.....What now? Swap back to obd2 and TRY to get your ~11:1 compression/Cam'd beast to run with no a/f/i control?

I know some people have the attitude that doing motor swaps and having PASS Motors in Cali to use for Smog is a good way to spend time, I don't. Until this build, I'd never heard of an obd2 H22 with aftermarket cams. Anyone? Not successfully at least. Getting 5whp from S2S1s isn't supposed to happen, not when you can tune the gears at least.(As I have seen with both of my motors)

Well, I tried to explain this as well as I could. I am faced with a similar dilema with my track-car right now. In IL, obd1 vehicles are NOW exempt from emissions testing! Great right??? Not if your car didn't pass emissions before 2007. So, that being said, I would have to swap cams at the least, reinstall my stock ecu, and change my exhaust system to get the car to pass, so for now I opt to call it a TrackCar waiting to get chauffeur'd via trailer to a date, kind of like mom driving you to the mall as a kid.....hahaha

Good stuff in here. I know I will learn a thing or 2.

 

Great information!

Says the guy that would like to build an H23 vtec and be able to pass emissions!

 

Guys with situations like yours were in my thoughts during my searching.<<Which was pretty worthless.
You are a perfect example of WHO needs help with this. You have an obd2 car that MUST pass IL Emissions and have desire to build it beyond i/h/e and what could be tuned with a VAFC. Although you are not the norm, as in you've owned your car forever, its the same idea with the 2nd Generation of 5G Prelude owners.(2nd and 3rd owners). They have had their car for a few years now, and i/h/e is boring them, or, they have that 100k+ H22A4 thats getting a little tired, and previously couldn't do anything but a stock rebuild b/c of emissions.
Personally, I think a TypeS rebuild with or without 95mm crank is a nice setup, add some Pro Cams, race header, and solid tuning, and its quite a beast for track days, yet reliable for daily driving, or at least driving to the track as you do, and I did. Trailering isn't an option for everyone, neither is just swapping to obd1 with no consideration for Emissions.

So as it stands right now, build an obd2 H series however you want, tune with Greddy E-manage.
I'd love some input from California folks. I know they've dealt with this for a long time. The only answers I have ever gotten from them were; Well, its not legal but you can do it if you're smart type of answers. How do they mod their cars and get away with it? And I am not talking about using a Pass Motor, then doing a motor swap after you SMOG. What do Built H22 owners that converted to obd1 do when it came time for SMOG? Its been said you can't even have as much as a VAFC for CARB Smog. How about your Non-CARB header or other parts? Your JDM engine?!

So here's the direct question(with you in mind Brian) You take your H22A4 block, use the F22 crank, TypeS pistons, Pro2 cams/cam gears. How do you get it running while retaining obd2? Until now, I can't say there was an answer I had found that did NOT involve obd1.
A local tuner said he can get ANY obd2 car to pass emissions with obd1 installed, but he won't talk about how, so here we are. I'd rather put trust in something as guaranteed as E-Manage,as opposed to some backyard trick for emissions. (I personally don't know how it could be done, and I have thought probably waaay to much about it)

UPDATE: Just talked to another local tuner that said he had no answers except swapping everything back. He also mentioned potential issues with the Immobilizer. He had also mentioned that he has spent hours trying to de-mod, detune, change obd2 cars that were built with an obd1 conversion, and obviously no attention paid to; What happens in 2yrs when you have to pass emmisions.
A friend of mine had an obd2 Prelude, swapped to obd1 and registered the car outside of Emissions Testing counties.....Hours and Hours away. Thats fine and dandy until you have a claim and risk being investigated for inconsistencies with addresses and places of residence. INS companies job is to NOT PAY or PAY AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE. They spend $millions every year on fraud investigation, and registering at a place that isn't your primary residence is Fraud. Guess what? People go to jail for Fraud, even as a 1st offense...

 

I can't see why eManage Ultimate wouldn't do the job perfectly well. A full build like this might not fair as well with the original eManage blue, which is more comparable to a VAFC, but the Ultimate version I would say is much more on par with chipped OBD1 options. Granted you are still limited to "tricking" your stock ECU, but that doesn't mean it can't be done effectively and reliably.

The only issue I thought was present for this type of setup was being able to tune the exhaust camshaft because of the CYP sensor. However, based on what is being said about the build mentioned in this thread plus my own experience, I'm not really sure that it's an issue unless perhaps you get into extreme offsets. To specificy, I guess I should say that is the case with the P5P ecu at least. I can't speak for other OBD2 motors and their sensitivity to that error, although I still believe in that case you could just swap on an OBD1 distributor and rotate as needed to alleviate the problem.

 

Exactly.....Seems like E-manage Ultimate is a double Retain obd2 AND ATTS if applicable....Pass emissions with no problem. I can't speak for Cali guys, but in IL they don't HUNT for mods. These $9/hr guys plug you in and say goodbye as long as you don't have a CEL. Cops are the same way, they don't hunt for mods when they pull you over. Which is NOT what I have heard from Cali people. So you get pulled over with your obd1 converted car that SMOGGED with obd2, then they send you to get Reffed and oh **** insues.....
I'd say that we may start seeing some solid obd2 H22 build sin the future. I can think of a handful already!
I got pretty far with JUST a vafc.....but after I tried and failed to tune my new setup with it, I immediately bought an S300 and did it right.....I was just trying to see how far I could get with basic tuning. While you can STILL use a vafc for a little extra tuning while retaining obd2, it doesn't address Ignition timing which has become obvious that it is req'd for Cam tuning. I almost tapped 200whp with just a vafc and generic ecu prgm. Only reason I used the generic ECU was to ditch the stock ecu rev limiter. It worked great with my S2S1 setup, but NOT with my JUNs.

 

There is nothing you can do about tunning an obd2 'Lude in CA and trying to keep it legal. There are currently no aftermarket,tunning PCM,s that are CARB legal. So that is an automatic failure. Buuuut most, if not all, smog techs dont bother looking at the PCM unless they suspect the car is modified. (I live in LA and happen to be a smog tech) The ASM smog test only runs the vehicle up to 15mph and 25 mph at part throttle. Well below the VTEC engagement. Any competent tuner can get your car to pass the emissions portion of the test easily. Problem is the visual portion. Good bolt on parts(suchs as an SMSP header) are not CARB legal and will cause you to fail the visual portion of the test. A failure is a failure, regardless of which part of the test it is....



In CA the law is very strict concerning emissions. Unfortunately CA is the bar by which all other states are measured, and they are proud of that. Manufactures even have to bow down to CA smog *****. They produce 49 state legal cars and they produce CA legal cars. The underhood emissions label identifies which type of vehicle it is, 49 state legal or CA state legal.(Many cars are now simpley CA state legal because if they are CA state legal , they will meet emissions requirements for the rest of the 49 states) As a smog tech, we are required to be diligent or risk having our license revoked. For me just having my smog license means an additional $700 a month of income. I will not risk it so some kid with a modded Civic can pass. Whats more the CHP and most local police agencies have been taught by the BAR as to what to look out for regarding illegal modifications.



With that being said, there are still a lot of places in CA that will smog your **** illegaly, for a fee. But those places are becoming harder and harder to find as the State cracks down on them.

 

Totally OT, but I still don't understand the point of CARB certification/visual inspections. I mean, if the car passes the emissions standards they set, why does it matter what parts are used? Numerous builds on here get better gas mileage than stock and probably have the same or better emissions output, but would be banned in CA simply because the parts manufacturers (or custom parts) haven't spent a bunch of money getting a CARB sticker. But I guess that probably answers my question; just like almost everything, it all comes down to money, and it's another way for CA to get a little more cash.

 

To be honest CARB stickers dont do anything anymore either. Atleast in my case(florida), they have changed the laws to state "any modification other then stock is a ticketable offense." Alot of states are moving to this kind of law, which i believe gives cops too much power and who are they to judge ANYTHING let alone modifications or accident reports.

But they do allow you to run what ever type or lack thereof exhaust as long as you participate in paid motorsports events. Get reciepts from the track!!

 

Whenever something doesn't make sense, it comes down to 2 things; Money and/or Aliens! haha!

 

Or just chip the stock ECU....

 

Chip an obd2 ecu? I was told many years ago by Katman that it couldn't be done.
What would you tune this chip with? Is there some way to use a K series ECU?
Very curious about this now........
Being told something can't be done was my original reason for doing this digging to find out more.



Boomslang makes a plug and play harness for E-Manage Ultimate. $199, but Im sure that NOT set in stone.

 

It still has a chip that can be replaced.

 

I have to believe if this was a viable option companies like Hondata would have already exploited it; there is certainly a market for it.

 

And tuned with what though??? Techtom?
http://www.technosquareinc.com/rom.htm
IDK though.....opening an obd2 ecu, dealing with immobilzer.....E-manage seems easier.
I read some older posts that said it could be done, but there was no talk of what would be used to tune it. Seemed like people were chipping their stock obd2 ecu just to get rid of rev limiters, with no talk of tuning AFRs and Ignition timing, or cam timing for that matter.