Wheres the torque???
04-29-2003, 12:47 PM
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Wheres the torque???
Ok, I know that hondas were never known for being torque monsters, but i was curious as to why. The reason i am confused, is because with a 1.8 liter turbo engine, I have seen some dyno on this website of roughly 300 hp, but barely 200 ft lbs of torque, plus it was all at like 7000+ RPM. We all know the old saying, HP gets the glory, but torque wins races. How can you make these engines more torquey?
to give you an idea of what i am used to from my VW these are some dyno sheets (not from my car)
this is with just a Chip, intake and exhaust (probably pushing about 20 psi on stock turbo)
this is the same car with an APR stage 3 upgrade. Bigger turbo, different programming.
to give you an idea of what i am used to from my VW these are some dyno sheets (not from my car)
this is with just a Chip, intake and exhaust (probably pushing about 20 psi on stock turbo)
this is the same car with an APR stage 3 upgrade. Bigger turbo, different programming.
04-29-2003, 01:18 PM
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Re: Wheres the torque??? (spaghizzle)
Its simple... 1.8Ts have two things working for them.
1. VW is notorious for putting really conservative cams on their motors so that they have low end torque.. example of this... look at the stock shitty 2.0... its SLOW, but its torquey. My VR6 came with 222 duration cams... while my aftermarkets are 268 (!).. huge difference... I lost low end torque. same thing Im sure with 1.8Ts
2. The BIGGEST thing that makes them so torquey is that 1.8Ts have SUPER TINY turbos... the K03s are tiny and spool really really fast.. so you get a lot of torque... Its just the way that Germans do it. You will notice this big time if you have a chipped 1.8T. it will be SUPER TORQUE MONSTER at low rpms... but at high RPMs that massive pull just is not there anymore. The turbo already ran out of breath.
Hope that helps.
1. VW is notorious for putting really conservative cams on their motors so that they have low end torque.. example of this... look at the stock shitty 2.0... its SLOW, but its torquey. My VR6 came with 222 duration cams... while my aftermarkets are 268 (!).. huge difference... I lost low end torque. same thing Im sure with 1.8Ts
2. The BIGGEST thing that makes them so torquey is that 1.8Ts have SUPER TINY turbos... the K03s are tiny and spool really really fast.. so you get a lot of torque... Its just the way that Germans do it. You will notice this big time if you have a chipped 1.8T. it will be SUPER TORQUE MONSTER at low rpms... but at high RPMs that massive pull just is not there anymore. The turbo already ran out of breath.
Hope that helps.
04-29-2003, 02:24 PM
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What is this crap?
Re: Wheres the torque??? (spaghizzle)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spaghizzle »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok, I know that hondas were never known for being torque monsters, but i was curious as to why. The reason i am confused, is because with a 1.8 liter turbo engine, I have seen some dyno on this website of roughly 300 hp, but barely 200 ft lbs of torque, plus it was all at like 7000+ RPM. We all know the old saying, HP gets the glory, but torque wins races. How can you make these engines more torquey?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
difference is cams and engine geometry. honda = lots of revs.
torque wins races because there is a direct relationship between torque and acceleration.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
difference is cams and engine geometry. honda = lots of revs.
torque wins races because there is a direct relationship between torque and acceleration.
04-29-2003, 02:50 PM
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yea i used to think (back in the day) i gotta get a whole lotta hp, then i was like no i need a lotta tq to be fast, then you just realize that they are in a "direct realationship" and honda eninges make thier power bying reving...
04-29-2003, 05:09 PM
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I am going to say it has to do with the dynamics of the motor itself.
Bore x Stroke
Cam Profiles
Fuel Ignition Maps
Manifold Designs
Different Igntion systems
Smaller turblows on the V-Dub, spool fast, but poop out in top end.
Plus their factory ECU can read boost (for turbo equipped models), and takes to boost increases, and upgrades a whole lot easier than a Honda would.
Glad to see someone showing interest rather than knocking it!
Bore x Stroke
Cam Profiles
Fuel Ignition Maps
Manifold Designs
Different Igntion systems
Smaller turblows on the V-Dub, spool fast, but poop out in top end.
Plus their factory ECU can read boost (for turbo equipped models), and takes to boost increases, and upgrades a whole lot easier than a Honda would.
Glad to see someone showing interest rather than knocking it!
04-29-2003, 05:19 PM
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Re: (psi420)
THe honda heads are designed to be efficient thermodynamically and flow wise at higher rpm's. This reduces low rpm torque. Since exhaust gas flow is what spools turbos (not rpm's but their is a relationship just not linear with respect to all motors). The more low end torque you have, the earlier you can spool. The earlier you can spool and the closer this is to the maxium volumetric efficiency of the pumping system (the motor) the more torque you will make. Hondas dont' make so much torque, but hold it for quite long.
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04-29-2003, 05:59 PM
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Re: Wheres the torque??? (jsalicru)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jsalicru »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its simple... 1.8Ts have two things working for them.
1. VW is notorious for putting really conservative cams on their motors so that they have low end torque.. example of this... look at the stock shitty 2.0... its SLOW, but its torquey. My VR6 came with 222 duration cams... while my aftermarkets are 268 (!).. huge difference... I lost low end torque. same thing Im sure with 1.8Ts
2. The BIGGEST thing that makes them so torquey is that 1.8Ts have SUPER TINY turbos... the K03s are tiny and spool really really fast.. so you get a lot of torque... Its just the way that Germans do it. You will notice this big time if you have a chipped 1.8T. it will be SUPER TORQUE MONSTER at low rpms... but at high RPMs that massive pull just is not there anymore. The turbo already ran out of breath.
Hope that helps.</TD></TR></TABLE>
you are very correct sir. i can fry the tires on my sister's beetle (2.0), but high rpm it hardly feels like you're even accelerating. i can pull on it anyday in my
1. VW is notorious for putting really conservative cams on their motors so that they have low end torque.. example of this... look at the stock shitty 2.0... its SLOW, but its torquey. My VR6 came with 222 duration cams... while my aftermarkets are 268 (!).. huge difference... I lost low end torque. same thing Im sure with 1.8Ts
2. The BIGGEST thing that makes them so torquey is that 1.8Ts have SUPER TINY turbos... the K03s are tiny and spool really really fast.. so you get a lot of torque... Its just the way that Germans do it. You will notice this big time if you have a chipped 1.8T. it will be SUPER TORQUE MONSTER at low rpms... but at high RPMs that massive pull just is not there anymore. The turbo already ran out of breath.
Hope that helps.</TD></TR></TABLE>
you are very correct sir. i can fry the tires on my sister's beetle (2.0), but high rpm it hardly feels like you're even accelerating. i can pull on it anyday in my
04-30-2003, 10:14 AM
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Re: (psi420)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by psi420 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I am going to say it has to do with the dynamics of the motor itself.
Bore x Stroke
Cam Profiles
Fuel Ignition Maps
Manifold Designs
Different Igntion systems
Smaller turblows on the V-Dub, spool fast, but poop out in top end.
Plus their factory ECU can read boost (for turbo equipped models), and takes to boost increases, and upgrades a whole lot easier than a Honda would.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Right on homey...
its all in the original engine design.
B18A/B: Designed more for torque
B16B: Designed to rev, flow, and make lots of horsepower. Similar to a motorcycle except not as extreme.
Toyota has the same thing.
1ZZ: Celica GT motor, 1.8 L but its designed with torque in mind. Doesn't like to rev, makes less power, but similar torque figures compared to the 2ZZ
2ZZ: designed to be revved. the crank does not have as much stroke to make it more rev happy, but at the cost of some torque.
VWs (as well as a whole lot of German cars lately) as designed for torque. Look at the new CL65 AMG.. that thing makes over 700 ft-lbs of torque, because its designed to do that... credit small turbos and conservative cam profiles...
If you wanna get REALLY radical into original engine design... here's one:
F1 cars... are designed for all out horsepower... they are not looking for low end torque because they want their engines to breathe A LOT of air for producing massive horsepower figures on the high end... Because of this, they have wicked geometries:
try this one: 3.0L V-10 motor... having a bore and stroke of somewhere in the 90mm x40mm category... there is VERY little stroke so piston speeds are somewhat relaxed.... they rev out somewhere in the neighborhood of 18500-19000 rpms and produce over 850hp NATURALLY ASPIRATED.
Bore x Stroke
Cam Profiles
Fuel Ignition Maps
Manifold Designs
Different Igntion systems
Smaller turblows on the V-Dub, spool fast, but poop out in top end.
Plus their factory ECU can read boost (for turbo equipped models), and takes to boost increases, and upgrades a whole lot easier than a Honda would.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Right on homey...
its all in the original engine design.
B18A/B: Designed more for torque
B16B: Designed to rev, flow, and make lots of horsepower. Similar to a motorcycle except not as extreme.
Toyota has the same thing.
1ZZ: Celica GT motor, 1.8 L but its designed with torque in mind. Doesn't like to rev, makes less power, but similar torque figures compared to the 2ZZ
2ZZ: designed to be revved. the crank does not have as much stroke to make it more rev happy, but at the cost of some torque.
VWs (as well as a whole lot of German cars lately) as designed for torque. Look at the new CL65 AMG.. that thing makes over 700 ft-lbs of torque, because its designed to do that... credit small turbos and conservative cam profiles...
If you wanna get REALLY radical into original engine design... here's one:
F1 cars... are designed for all out horsepower... they are not looking for low end torque because they want their engines to breathe A LOT of air for producing massive horsepower figures on the high end... Because of this, they have wicked geometries:
try this one: 3.0L V-10 motor... having a bore and stroke of somewhere in the 90mm x40mm category... there is VERY little stroke so piston speeds are somewhat relaxed.... they rev out somewhere in the neighborhood of 18500-19000 rpms and produce over 850hp NATURALLY ASPIRATED.
04-30-2003, 03:57 PM
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Re: (jsalicru)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jsalicru »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">they might be flat, but they are not big.</TD></TR></TABLE>
the honda big blocks make big TQ numbers
the honda big blocks make big TQ numbers
04-30-2003, 06:09 PM
#14
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Re: (BoostedH23a1)
isn;t the old saying torq is for burnout but hp is for winning races?
and well a b16 may be toqless but it pulls hard to the end a b18 will pull hard to beginwith and through the powerban but may die out on top
a v8 or other motors will chearp from gear to gear because of low end torq. id rather pull harder in the higher rpms than loose my traction at 35 going into 2nd.
nice info u learn something everyday
and well a b16 may be toqless but it pulls hard to the end a b18 will pull hard to beginwith and through the powerban but may die out on top
a v8 or other motors will chearp from gear to gear because of low end torq. id rather pull harder in the higher rpms than loose my traction at 35 going into 2nd.
nice info u learn something everyday
04-30-2003, 08:07 PM
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Re: (bmcc72)
Why would a B18 die out top end? 
Bore x Stroke plays a huge roll in dertermining TQ figures as of course cam profiles, fuel, tuning etc. By the way notice how that first VW spikes like that and just dies and dies and dies as it revs. Ever seen a properly tuned B20/VTEC, (or most Honda motors) flat as a board TQ curve. VW's have smaller bore and larger stroke, more TQ, less revs, less breathing top end. Plus the smaller turbo for more effiecent drivability but less top end. That motor probalby had the APR 1.0BAR chip. The Garret chip spike to 20psi but usually hit a soft fuel cut often before settling. Either way whatever chip it is using is way to aggresive for that turbo as shown by the graph.
Bore x Stroke plays a huge roll in dertermining TQ figures as of course cam profiles, fuel, tuning etc. By the way notice how that first VW spikes like that and just dies and dies and dies as it revs. Ever seen a properly tuned B20/VTEC, (or most Honda motors) flat as a board TQ curve. VW's have smaller bore and larger stroke, more TQ, less revs, less breathing top end. Plus the smaller turbo for more effiecent drivability but less top end. That motor probalby had the APR 1.0BAR chip. The Garret chip spike to 20psi but usually hit a soft fuel cut often before settling. Either way whatever chip it is using is way to aggresive for that turbo as shown by the graph.
05-01-2003, 07:07 PM
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Re: (jsalicru)
The 1.8T reaches peak VE at earlier rpm.
The turbo size is just right.
The motor has high piston speed
rod: 144mm
stroke: 86.4mm
rod/stroke=1.66 (worse than an H23a 1.54)
bore is 81mm
Why does the torque take a downward slope?
It's running out of air, because it's out-running air.
There is a limit to how fast air can be moved. On a stroked motor, at high rpm, the piston speed is too fast for the valve timing events. The valve remains open for too short of a time. Air can only move so fast without loosing its density. Lose density.. lose power.
VW's are heavy. They can use the lower end punch (even in FWD).
Take that same motor, put it in a light FWD Honda and you'll have a hard time finding traction.
Modified by Quick 200k Mile Motor at 11:17 PM 5/1/2003
The turbo size is just right.
The motor has high piston speed
rod: 144mm
stroke: 86.4mm
rod/stroke=1.66 (worse than an H23a 1.54)
bore is 81mm
Why does the torque take a downward slope?
It's running out of air, because it's out-running air.
There is a limit to how fast air can be moved. On a stroked motor, at high rpm, the piston speed is too fast for the valve timing events. The valve remains open for too short of a time. Air can only move so fast without loosing its density. Lose density.. lose power.
VW's are heavy. They can use the lower end punch (even in FWD).
Take that same motor, put it in a light FWD Honda and you'll have a hard time finding traction.
Modified by Quick 200k Mile Motor at 11:17 PM 5/1/2003
05-01-2003, 07:10 PM
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Re: (Quick 200k Mile Motor)
Btw, when turbo sizing you should plot out the rpm point where it reaches peak VE, not just the max rpm point. Because in some cases, the motor will flow more at a lower rpm, than in the highend.
Peak VE usually follows the torque output, and its usually 4400rpm - 6800rpm for us (thats why 85% - 90% is a good estimate for the max rpm point). If the motor is worked it'll change (VE could be 110% and at a higher rpm than usual).
Modified by Quick 200k Mile Motor at 11:22 PM 5/1/2003
Peak VE usually follows the torque output, and its usually 4400rpm - 6800rpm for us (thats why 85% - 90% is a good estimate for the max rpm point). If the motor is worked it'll change (VE could be 110% and at a higher rpm than usual).
Modified by Quick 200k Mile Motor at 11:22 PM 5/1/2003
05-01-2003, 07:11 PM
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Re: (jsalicru)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jsalicru »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">they might be flat, but they are not big.</TD></TR></TABLE>
they dont really have to be...
****..... a flat torque curve pwnz a huge torque number if it drops like crazy...or is all over the place.
they dont really have to be...
****..... a flat torque curve pwnz a huge torque number if it drops like crazy...or is all over the place.
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