Hallo,

maybe this was discussed befor but i found nothing on the search engine so i ask anyway.
The question is simple and its more theoretical then practical... i just want to understand the physics behind this.

What causes sleeve failure (stock and as well resleeved)?

i know detonation will cause sleeve failure but what is it in general? Heat? Pressure? both?

and what could be ways to determine how far i'am away from the limit?

Thanks
Malte.

 

i think heat .. is the 1 cause stress probably the 2

 

detonation hands down.

 

Are you running stock or aftermarket sleeves? The main causes of a sleeve cracking is cylinder pressure exceeding the tensile strength of the sleeve or the cylinder deforming beyond the sleeves elasticity. Stock sleeves are std. gray cast iron and have a low tensile strength (approximately 30 K PSI) and a very low percentage of elongation (non-flexable).
For aftermarket sleeves there are 3 grades of materials available as well as different wall thickness and designs. A std. repair sleeve is made of the same material as stock sleeves (very cheap) and has a very thin wall (actually weaker than stock since it's pressed in rather than cast in). An in-between grade (inexpensive also) is made of a cast chromoly and is slightly more flexiable and has a higher than stock tensile strength (50K PSI). Some installers are using these due to the lower cost of the sleeves. The Ductile iron sleeves have a tensile of over 100K PSI and are very flexable.
With all that being said, assuming the sleeves were a quality casting and installed correctly and don't sink, leak, deform or oscillate (wobble), the cylinder pressure and HP are the cause of aftermarket sleeve failure. All sleeve mfg.'s and installers are limited to a max wall thickness by the bore centerline (distance between bores) and cylinder bore. This is always the thinnest and weakest point of everyones sleeve, regardless of how much material (ribs, thicker wall) is in other parts of the sleeve.
So if you have an 84 bore on an 89 bore center there's 5mm between the cylinders. If the sleeves were touching (most don't), the individual sleeves wall thickness would be 2.5mm or .098" . .098 x 100K = 9842 PSI for the Ductile sleeve, half of that for chromoly and 2940 PSI for gray cast iron. Notice that a 1 mm overbore on ductile sleeves will drop that to 7800 PSI and a 2mm overbore drops to 5800 PSI. A stock material cast iron sleeve would drop all the way to 1740 PSI on an 86 bore.Advancing the timing to far or detonation (pre-ignition) will cause cylinder pressures to spike (especially with a turbo) because the piston is still moving up (compressing) as the ignited mixture is expanding. Resulting in possible sleeve failure. As the HP goes up the thrust (side) load of the piston on the sleeve goes up as more force is applied . Converting the linear motion of the piston to the rotary motion of the crank causes the piston to push to the thrust side. This can cause the sleeve to distort or wobble as the load is applied during the power stroke and reduced during intake and exhaust. This is what makes a closed deck desirable to support against this oscillation and reduce the fretting on the head gasket (leading to failure)as well as reducing the chance of creating a leak at the bottom of the sleeve. This movement can also cause a rigid stock sleeve to fatigue over time and crack.

 

wow, thanks for the detailed answer... i personaly have stock sleeves but my question was in a general manner... because i think even aftermarket sleeves have a point where they break.

so just to be sure that i understand your post correct... cylinder pressure is the most worse for sleeves... and sure, if you have detonation, cylinder pressure increases much so this is what you have to avoid...

but whats about heat on stock sleeves? i mean heat produced by combustion? i think more air=more fuel=more boom=more tourqe=more heat produced in the combustion chamber... or am i wrong... or wont be heat any problem for the sleeves even if the temp rises.

Thanks
Malte.

 

Very indepth... what he said.

 

All materials become weaker as their temp. rises, but you will probably find a piston skirt clearance issue (seizure) before heat alone causes sleeve failure. Keep the air/fuel ratio in the 12-13 range and you shouldn't have a heat problem. Are you having an overheating issue? Cast iron can crack if you get it hot and cool it too fast. So don't add cold water too fast to an overheated engine.

 

no, i haven't any problems with my engine... it was just a theoretical question... :-) because it helps to understand the things so i wont get any problems in the future ;-)

Thanks for the info... you helped me a lot.

 

I have to get back to work but RPM also contributes to sleeve failure.

 

I hope it helped. I have to get back to work, but there can be other causes too. It's hard to cover everything.

 

I believe most of our sleeve failure is caused by the wrong ignition timing at the wrong crank angle. (the tune) Ever notice pistons arn't usually melted when we see someone posting pictures of cracked sleeves?

oh and wicked post quickcarl

 

Lets not forget a karate chop from a broken connecting rod.

 

Nice write up QC.
Remember, that no matter how thick the sleeve looks or how many ribs are cast into it or what other marketing tricks are used, the strength of any sleeve is always controlled by the thickness between the cylinders. That is the weak spot. The bigger the bore, the weaker the sleeve, no matter who makes the sleeve.

 

WOW! Very nice. Something good for a change.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by quickcarl &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Are you running stock or aftermarket sleeves? The main causes of a sleeve cracking is cylinder pressure exceeding the tensile strength of the sleeve or the cylinder deforming beyond the sleeves elasticity. Stock sleeves are std. gray cast iron and have a low tensile strength (approximately 30 K PSI) and a very low percentage of elongation (non-flexable).
For aftermarket sleeves there are 3 grades of materials available as well as different wall thickness and designs. A std. repair sleeve is made of the same material as stock sleeves (very cheap) and has a very thin wall (actually weaker than stock since it's pressed in rather than cast in). An in-between grade (inexpensive also) is made of a cast chromoly and is slightly more flexiable and has a higher than stock tensile strength (50K PSI). Some installers are using these due to the lower cost of the sleeves. The Ductile iron sleeves have a tensile of over 100K PSI and are very flexable.
With all that being said, assuming the sleeves were a quality casting and installed correctly and don't sink, leak, deform or oscillate (wobble), the cylinder pressure and HP are the cause of aftermarket sleeve failure. All sleeve mfg.'s and installers are limited to a max wall thickness by the bore centerline (distance between bores) and cylinder bore. This is always the thinnest and weakest point of everyones sleeve, regardless of how much material (ribs, thicker wall) is in other parts of the sleeve.
So if you have an 84 bore on an 89 bore center there's 5mm between the cylinders. If the sleeves were touching (most don't), the individual sleeves wall thickness would be 2.5mm or .098" . .098 x 100K = 9842 PSI for the Ductile sleeve, half of that for chromoly and 2940 PSI for gray cast iron. Notice that a 1 mm overbore on ductile sleeves will drop that to 7800 PSI and a 2mm overbore drops to 5800 PSI. A stock material cast iron sleeve would drop all the way to 1740 PSI on an 86 bore.Advancing the timing to far or detonation (pre-ignition) will cause cylinder pressures to spike (especially with a turbo) because the piston is still moving up (compressing) as the ignited mixture is expanding. Resulting in possible sleeve failure. As the HP goes up the thrust (side) load of the piston on the sleeve goes up as more force is applied . Converting the linear motion of the piston to the rotary motion of the crank causes the piston to push to the thrust side. This can cause the sleeve to distort or wobble as the load is applied during the power stroke and reduced during intake and exhaust. This is what makes a closed deck desirable to support against this oscillation and reduce the fretting on the head gasket (leading to failure)as well as reducing the chance of creating a leak at the bottom of the sleeve. This movement can also cause a rigid stock sleeve to fatigue over time and crack.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Damn NICE WRITE UP!!! Thanks for explaining alot to us all, now everyone go save this to your H-T notepads!

 

I know its more of a piston issue (failure) but has a direct correlation to the sleeves, and that would be the piston to sleeve clearance. If the clearance is too small, when the piston expands from heat it can make contact with the sleeve and melt down ensues. There is a noted tuner here that puts down big numbers on stock sleeves. I asked him what clearance he was running and he said 4thousandths. That’s almost twice the stock clearance. So I guess I’m saying part of the “good tune” is the proper build of the engine.

 

excellent write up with detail education

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boostfed.com &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Damn NICE WRITE UP!!! Thanks for explaining alot to us all, now everyone go save this to your H-T notepads! </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats right Terry. Be sure to write in your notepad that Quickcarl is one of the techs at ERL

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93LSivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Thats right Terry. Be sure to write in your notepad that Quickcarl is one of the techs at ERL </TD></TR></TABLE>

Damn, I looked his Profile up trying to figure out who he was, I was thinking this guy is older than me too! hehehe Now I know

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93LSivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thats right Terry. Be sure to write in your notepad that Quickcarl is one of the techs at ERL </TD></TR></TABLE>Someone always has to come along and make a good post into a comercial post. There goes the sticky that it deserved.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by earl &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Someone always has to come along and make a good post into a comercial post. There goes the sticky that it deserved. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Earl, I dont normally get into these type of threads, but you are out of line, period. Answer this question honestly: If Dan Benson came along and made the post that QC did, and someone reiterated that it was Dan himself that made the post, would you have said what you did?

I think your grudge with Dan is getting a little carried away What is wrong with it being made public that he is an ERL tech? He made an extremely informative post and I personlly think its only fair people know where this caliber of information originated from.

Here is a perfect example of a commercial post that does not meet the forum criteria. https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=565375 You dont see us making posts in a techincial forum that involve retail pricing and availability. It honestly seems to me that you use your moderator power to your advantage, not for the benfit of the Honda-Tech member I know you have contributed alot of information to this site over the years, and commend you for that, but sometimes i see the opposite.

I myself am guilty of getting off topic, but I think that this needed to be said.


Josh

 

a question for quickcarl or anyone else.

As he said, as you increase the bore of the piston, you decrease its strengths to hold power.

Would you say, then its better to keep a stock bore, or overbore it? I know i have a good friend now with an h22a that was recently sleeved and went to 89mm bore with all kinds of ARP hardware. And i know countless B18 guys running 84mm bores to get more displacement. Would you think that this is running a risk? or that even with the increased bore and decreased sleeve thickness, that its still strong enough to handle high amounts of HP. High amounts = 600+whp, but probably nothing gettign near 900?

Just wondering for motor plans i have thougth of and just wondering if there is a limit we should try to push dave's h22a motor.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by seen4ever &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">a question for quickcarl or anyone else.

As he said, as you increase the bore of the piston, you decrease its strengths to hold power.

Would you say, then its better to keep a stock bore, or overbore it? I know i have a good friend now with an h22a that was recently sleeved and went to 89mm bore with all kinds of ARP hardware. And i know countless B18 guys running 84mm bores to get more displacement. Would you think that this is running a risk? or that even with the increased bore and decreased sleeve thickness, that its still strong enough to handle high amounts of HP. High amounts = 600+whp, but probably nothing gettign near 900?

Just wondering for motor plans i have thougth of and just wondering if there is a limit we should try to push dave's h22a motor.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes there are always limits to a sleeve and how big of a bore you go. Each sleeve manufacturer has a max bore for their sleeves relevant to Boost/Forced Induction or All Motor. For the most part most sleeve manufacturers state 84.5-85mm MAX on a B series for a Forced Induction motor BUT that same B series could go all the up to 86-86.5mm for an All Motor set up. Same with H Series, I spoke to a sleeving manufacturer the other day about getting an H22A done to 90mm, they said max of 89mm for FI or 90mm is fine for All Motor. I hope I answered your questions.

 

yep, exactly what i wnated to know. I've ready about people easily going to 89 on H-series and 84 on B, but after realying about how you go 2mm over and you are down a good deal in strenght, well on H-series we go 3mm over. Just seemed pretty wild.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by seen4ever &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yep, exactly what i wnated to know. I've ready about people easily going to 89 on H-series and 84 on B, but after realying about how you go 2mm over and you are down a good deal in strenght, well on H-series we go 3mm over. Just seemed pretty wild.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well almost anything is possible these days with Technology and all, companies out there are doing Off Set sleeving which allows bigger bores for motors still, there are plenty of Posts on here in Archives about it, I don't know much about the Off Set sleeeving other than it is available and a couple of companies offer it sir. Good luck!