RZFD

I've been doing a little research this as an option to reduce EGT's and as an additional buffer between detonation on an internally stock turbo S2000. There have been a couple of guys that have used it very successfully on high compression turbo engines. When tuned properly there seems to be literally no drawbacks? If that's the case why hasn't this caught on in the Honda camp? 95 degree IAT's don't seem like a bad idea to me, nor does the additional knock resistance. Maybe a lot of tuners aren't that experienced with it? Hell even searching didn't bring up much of anything. Discuss.


Modified by R0ck* at 6:19 PM 4/10/2005

NastyHabitzCRX

i plan on using methanol injection with mine. water/alcohol injection is popping up a lot these days

b16sedan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by R0ck* &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've been doing a little research this as an option to reduce EGT's and as an additional buffer between detonation on an internally stock turbo S2000. There have been a couple of guys that have used it very successfully on high compression turbo engines. When tuned properly there seems to be literally no drawbacks? If that's the case why hasn't this caught on in the Honda camp? 95 degree IAT's don't seem like a bad idea to me, nor does the additional knock resistance. Maybe a lot of tuners aren't that experienced with it? Hell even searching didn't bring up much of anything. Discuss.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you got it with your last bit, not a lot of tuners have seen water or alcohol injection before, and really don't want to go there. It's caught on big time with the domestic guys. Turbo buicks run 10+ pounds more boost on pump gas spraying alcohol. A friend of mine runs meth injection on his non intercooled blower car, you can see condensation forming on the manifold because it gets so cold. I know a guy in VA who just made 910 RWHP on 94 octane + meth in a 347" car. I think it's a great idea, especially running something like the AEM EMS where you can have it knock back timing and/or boost if it detects a low alcohol level, or low pump pressure.

accord387

buicks even have a OEM place for water injection, they were going to start using it if there would've been and 88 model. My dad has been using alcohol injection on his GN for AWHILE, might not seem like to much, but he runs 22lbs on the street with about 425whp.

RZFD

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b16sedan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think you got it with your last bit, not a lot of tuners have seen water or alcohol injection before, and really don't want to go there.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'd really like to hear some tuner's opinions on this.

blundar

there are several very technical discussions of the merits and drawbacks of water and alcohol injection in the Tuning forum on PGMFI. You'll find several juicy NACA reports that contain solid scientific experiments exploring the benefits. You'll also find that the domestic crowd and balla status RX7 crowd lead the way with WI.

For something like a boosted S2K, water injection would work very nicely assuming you could control it appropriately.

RZFD

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blundar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">there are several very technical discussions of the merits and drawbacks of water and alcohol injection in the Tuning forum on PGMFI. You'll find several juicy NACA reports that contain solid scientific experiments exploring the benefits. You'll also find that the domestic crowd and balla status RX7 crowd lead the way with WI.

For something like a boosted S2K, water injection would work very nicely assuming you could control it appropriately.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was looking into Autronic for engine mgt. I see you do a bit of tuning yourself. Care to share your experiences with WI?

liam821

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NastyHabitzCRX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i plan on using methanol injection with mine. water/alcohol injection is popping up a lot these days </TD></TR></TABLE>

Gonna agree. If you are gonna goto all the work of doing water, you might as well add some meth in there too.

liam

RZFD

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by liam821 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Gonna agree. If you are gonna goto all the work of doing water, you might as well add some meth in there too.

liam</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well put, but I'd rather not push things on a daily driven ride.

blundar

I'd almost disagree. The purpose of water and meth are somewhat different. If your fuel system is adaquate to supplying fuel, let it. On both a thermal and chemical level, water is a more effective detonation suppressant. There was a pretty good explanantion on one of the megasquirt guy's pages about the half-reactions of combustion that water becomes chemically involved in. You should read it.

Sonny

I just got the coolingmist.com kit for my RX-7. It'd be really nice to run 93 octane gas and not have to worry so much, but when all you've got is 91 octane and a rotary engine that is very intolerant of detonation, WI/methanol is a great alternative. If it works out with the RX-7, I may install a system in my truck, too (it has no I/C from the factory).

Sonny

RZFD

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blundar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd almost disagree. The purpose of water and meth are somewhat different. If your fuel system is adaquate to supplying fuel, let it. On both a thermal and chemical level, water is a more effective detonation suppressant. There was a pretty good explanantion on one of the megasquirt guy's pages about the half-reactions of combustion that water becomes chemically involved in. You should read it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Got some likage on that? Although I prefer physics to chemistry I'd like to have a look at this.

JDMCRX

iTrader: (2)

Bump guys

blundar

not handy... it's linked off the page for the megasquirt add-on board. I'll try to track it down at some point.

JustinL

ive got smc alcohol injection and it works wonders. at about 15 psi you can hear the beginnings of detonation , but when you spray it can boost to 17-19 without detonation.

b18rexracer

I'm putting the Spearco water injection kit on my car in like a week, Spearco makes a setup for turbo cars or NA setups. I'm planning on trying a 60/40 mix of water/alcohol and a 50/50 to see what works best. I wouldnt mind using Meth if I knew more about it and where to get it. I've be debating on what kind of alcohol to use, for starters I'm just going to go with 99% Isopropal for Rite-Aid because I can't seem to find where to buy anything else. Anyone know where I can buy Ethanol (hmm maybe Everclear? ) or Methanol in Northern Cali?

All this is going on my drag Crx gonna try and run 20 psi I'll let you guys know how it works out.

D-tuned

bump for more info

Sonny

I get Methanol at ERC (Engine Research Company) in San Leandro, CA. I think most places that sell race fuel (VP, Unocal, etc) also carry methanol.

Some excellent info here:

http://www.waterinjection.info

Sonny

blundar

http://not2fast.wryday.com/thermo/water_injection/

The link I spoke of re: combustion chemistry is #1 on that page.

RudeLude

would it make a difference if u were to run chilled water, instead of outside temp?

RZFD

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RudeLude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">would it make a difference if u were to run chilled water, instead of outside temp?</TD></TR></TABLE>

The water would have to absorb more heat before evaporating so I'm gonna say yes.

_entropy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blundar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd almost disagree. The purpose of water and meth are somewhat different. If your fuel system is adaquate to supplying fuel, let it. On both a thermal and chemical level, water is a more effective detonation suppressant. There was a pretty good explanantion on one of the megasquirt guy's pages about the half-reactions of combustion that water becomes chemically involved in. You should read it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The water would provide better detonation resistance if the only benefit from it was the decreased intake and cylinder temps, but that's not all the meth does. Since the methanol has such a high octane rating it supplements some of the fuel that would ordinarily be provided through your injectors, letting you run even more boost than water alone.

blundar

Of course it will make a difference. If you want to figure out how much:

Figure out the volume of water you inject, in mL.
1 mL H2O = 1g H2O (for purposes of argument at least)

(100 deg C - temperature water injected) * mass water injected * 4.184 J/g-degC = Energy require to bring liquid water to 100C

mass water injected * 2260 J/g = Energy required to vaporize water at 100C

2260 / 4.184 = 540

So unless my physics/chemistry is horribly wrong, you would need to have water at -440C (i.e. below absolute zero) for the amount of energy involved in heating it to 100 C to equal the heat of vaporization.

Bottom line: don't ******* bother - water injection absorbs most of the undesired kinetic energy in the phase change from liquid to vapor NOT heating the liquid water itself.

blundar

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Napoleon Dynamite &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The water would provide better detonation resistance if the only benefit from it was the decreased intake and cylinder temps, but that's not all the meth does. Since the methanol has such a high octane rating it supplements some of the fuel that would ordinarily be provided through your injectors, letting you run even more boost than water alone.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Read the combustion chemistry links. Fuel in excess of about 13:1 (I'm not going to argue a SPECIFIC number) is used primarily for cooling purposes. When you are running WI, water is far superior to gasoline for that purpose. The reason so many of the GN crowd run water/alky mix is that they do NOT have stock fuel systems capable of supplying the amount of fuel to run at elevated boost levels. Go look up the heat of vaporization for methanol. Look at it's chemical structure compared to H2o. Go investigate the half reactions for combustion - it's not as simple as C + O2 = CO2 and H2 + O2 = 2H2O. The puzzle pieces are there, put them together.

RZFD

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blundar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Read the combustion chemistry links. Fuel in excess of about 13:1 (I'm not going to argue a SPECIFIC number) is used primarily for cooling purposes. When you are running WI, water is far superior to gasoline for that purpose. The reason so many of the GN crowd run water/alky mix is that they do NOT have stock fuel systems capable of supplying the amount of fuel to run at elevated boost levels. Go look up the heat of vaporization for methanol. Look at it's chemical structure compared to H2o. Go investigate the half reactions for combustion - it's not as simple as C + O2 = CO2 and H2 + O2 = 2H2O. The puzzle pieces are there, put them together.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh baby, I love it when you talk tech to me!! DON'T STOP, I'M ALMOST THERE!!!!!!