I'm just curious on how much better the air to water intercooler is then the air to air FMIC is.... What other things are needed to get one of those running... I'm thinking about turboing my civic (again sigh) and was thinking about getting an air to water IC.... but somone told me that they work way better but arn't good for a daily driver... i basiclly just need some info on it... cause i don't know much about it right now.. thanks
shane

 

[Enter the Supercharger vs Turbocharger war.gif pic here]

Patience, Preference, and Space Constraints. That's what it boils down to.

 

so it's not bad for a daily driver? what else do i need to run a water to air IC?

 

Uhm, look at what the SyTy boys are doing... they have two favored water pumps, Johnson (?) at $60 that flows like hell and Jabsco at $110 that flows an (acceptable) half the volume as the Johnson, but is magnetic driven so that there is NO way trash lodging in the impeller can hurt the pump, and NO way water can get to the pump motor to destroy it.

Figure 2 to 3 gallon reservior.

And a big fat heat exchanger aka radiator. I know people running some goodly sized truck transmission coolers.

I don't think water-air is as prone to heat soak as urban legend tells you it is, IF you use a heat exchanger. It will draw a good portion of heat out of the charge air, even if the water-air core is smaller than traditional beefy air-air units. I have no actual data about intake temp drops on typical water-air setup versus typical air-air setup to tell you if the water air is as good/nearly as good/a little less than you like for a frequently driven street vehicle.

I can tell you that chucking a few small bits of dry ice into the reserviour when at the track, or just regular old icecubes, is a sure fire way to drop a LOT of charge temp.

 

I made a custom one on my ncurrent ride. I have used the FMIC before so I know both sides. I personally like the Water-air aftercooler better due to the fact that you have no fluctuations from run to run while daily street driving, no matter what the temp is or humidity. Under the hood I run a 6 litre tank and front mounted a condensor for the heat exchanger, and use a heater core inside my IC pipe where the water/coolant flows. The other great thing is when I go to track days, I empty out some water, and pack the tank full of ice and let the system run for a few minutes. Car feels like the first day of winter and pulls like a ****!

Oh, and dyno tuning is great, don't have to worry about heat soak from teh dinky fans, just add ice when needed!

 

You can do it, but why on the street? To me it is not worth all the time, effort, fabrication, money etc... when a good air to air will be just as if not more efficent then a water/air on the street because the heat exchanger set-up will not be efficent enough. Here is some valid reasoning why from tony1:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, it's a very debatable subject and i'm about to go to bed. But, with the air/air you have an unlimited supply of ambient air to cool with. With the water to air you have to rely on two heat exchangers, the intercooler and the heat exchanger for the water. You can only cool to the temperature of the air or water cooling the ic. With the water to air you have to take into consideration that the water won't maintain ambient temp because the heat exchanger won't be 100% efficient. Therefore, you have warmer than ambient water doing your cooling, thus making the coolest possible air temp the temp of the water. Now comes the fact that water cools better than air. The question is how much? A good air/air intercooler can be about 85% efficient. If your heat exchanger for the water/air is only 70% efficient then you've got that to take into account as well. It's really all speculation as far as i know, I don't know anyone who has actually done a back to back comparison. I have seen the air temps of both on the dyno though. The water to air is consistently warmer than the air/airs that i've seen. The dyno being the place where the water to air should be beneficial too! Just the other day Bob Norwood had a twin turbo testarossa over there on the dyno and the air temps were 165 F. at only 20psi on 60-1's with two spearco water/air coolers and a big heat exchanger. I've never seen air temps like that with an air/air. Keep the water/airs for the track....</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Fine, then. I'll post my setup. It's as simple as it gets with water/air.

Reservoir in the fenderwell, heat exchanger up front, Jabsco pump on the frame rail under the intercooler, mounted up where the airbox and battery was. Easy Peasy. Daily driven. One leak in 3 years because I dropped the front of the car off the ramps when towing it. Oops.

 

Big for the stealth factor. Though I love my fmic, I do get tired of every big wing honda revving on me.

 

i still would like to know the efficiency ratings between the two.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SiR Kid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Fine, then. I'll post my setup. It's as simple as it gets with water/air.

Reservoir in the fenderwell, heat exchanger up front, Jabsco pump on the frame rail under the intercooler, mounted up where the airbox and battery was. Easy Peasy. Daily driven. One leak in 3 years because I dropped the front of the car off the ramps when towing it. Oops.

</TD></TR></TABLE> so what do you put in it to keep it cold? i live in las vegas, it's to hot out here and i don't think anything would stay cold long enough....

 

you have to think that the water will most likely not get as hot as the outside air so you're still more efficient than you would be w/ a front mount. that's the way i look at it atleast.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HavokRacing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you have to think that the water will most likely not get as hot as the outside air so you're still more efficient than you would be w/ a front mount. that's the way i look at it atleast.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Don't forget that you have an unlimited volume of air though.

 

i say it depends on what you are doing with it.

if it's a drag car, a water to air will be a much favored preference because you can ice down the water, and get below ambient temps under full boost with an efficient enough setup.

On a daily driver it really is a matter of preference and what you are looking for.

A water to air intercooler setup will definatley have more parts, and be more bulky, and will be less reliable than an air to air setup. But if the setup is designed properly, it can be more efficient because water can take heat out of the air better than the water can, so you can run a smaller core with the same effect, and loose the pressure drop that you would get with a high efficiency air to air intercooler.

I don't have time to elaborate on this, but this will definately give you people something to think about.

 

Another thing I like about my setup is, if I have a boost pipe blow off, I've only got 5 clamps to look at. And NONE of them are where I will have to lay on my back, or anywhere where I am in any danger of burning myself when I fix it, too.

Plus, the short short boost piping RULES for spool.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SiR Kid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Plus, the short short boost piping RULES for spool.</TD></TR></TABLE>
that is the main reason why im considering doing it but i didnt know if it was true or not. does it spool considerably faster than a FMIC?

 

Not CONSIDERABLY. From just doing the math for filling a space, it should be 200-300 RPM sooner, at least. My boost piping TOTAL WITH INTERCOOLER is shorter than most EG's piping from turbo wrapping around the rad support to the intercooler, and not including the intercooler. About 18-24 inches.

 

I got a setup similar to Sir Kid in the works., my battery is where his water cell is so mine is on the other side.'

 

Havok - what cooler is that? is it the pwr?

 

I think the air to water ICs are nice for the fact that your piping can be much shorter and less complicated.

And the sleeper effect. No big IC to worry about hiding.

Right now I will be fine with a normal IC. But when my life settles down more, I am definatly going to build a nice air to water system.

 

Yeah, it's the small Pwr. They looked bigger in pictures so i went w/ the smallest one and now that it's in there i realized that i could definately go the 6''X10" one without problems. I can upgrade later on though. no biggie. I chose the air to water because of the sleeper effect and for the fact that they are effective, I only drive that car on weekend nights or during the week for no more than like 20 miles a day so i'm not worried about street driving. And on those weekend nights i just throw some ice in there, I made the water cell opening big enough to slide a frozen water bottle in there after i cut the bottle itself off. should work!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Figure 2 to 3 gallon reservior.</TD></TR></TABLE>

why does everyone say you need such a large reservior? i can understand if you're filling it with ice, but lets say that you never plan on icing it. will there still be a need for such a large reservior?

 

why not run both?

if you have the cash.use a fmic to cool it down one stage and the a/w intercooler to cool it down even further/if you dont have water in your resevoir,than the front one will still work for you.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civictypenos &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why not run both?

if you have the cash.use a fmic to cool it down one stage and the a/w intercooler to cool it down even further/if you dont have water in your resevoir,than the front one will still work for you.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was wondering the same thing...use the traditional FMIC then maybe one of the barrel air/water IC's in place of your charge pipe.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted92 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Don't forget that you have an unlimited volume of air though.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Umm... with the water to air intercooler you have an unlimited volume of air also. Some of you guys make it sound like once the water is heated up, thats it, no more cooling. The heat exchanger uses air to cool down the water.

 

what would temperture fluctuation from idle traffic to full run differ?...especially to tune without worrying about too many variables of cooling efficiency. How efficient is the heat exchanger? For daily drivers would water suffice or a mixture of coolant and water, because you cannot expect anyone to drive around with an ice chest full of ice everywhere? How much would this setup be compared to a traditional FMIC? LESS piping equals better response, but FMIC setup on the FULL-RACE setup accomplishes the same. What's the pros and cons, really? bottomline!