Variable Vein Turbos
06-26-2008, 07:49 PM
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Variable Vein Turbos
I was looking in to possiblly putting a volvo variable veined turbo on a d16 turbo setup. i have been doing some research but i just dont really hear many people doing it, i was wondering if anybody here is running a variabl vein setup? if so some feed back on it? or just any input on hte VV turbos in genral.
06-26-2008, 09:21 PM
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Re: Variable Vein Turbos (kauai96)
Generally they work, but most are set to use the vanes to control boost, not a normal WG. Also, they are known to not like the heat of gasoline engines much.
06-27-2008, 05:42 AM
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Re: Variable Vein Turbos (HiProfile)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Also, they are known to not like the heat of gasoline engines much.</TD></TR></TABLE>
uh...heat of gas engines? Care to explain that?
Porsche uses variable vane turbos on the 997, and if I'm not mistaken, they're on a few other cars now too.
uh...heat of gas engines? Care to explain that?
Porsche uses variable vane turbos on the 997, and if I'm not mistaken, they're on a few other cars now too.
06-27-2008, 05:49 AM
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Re: Variable Vein Turbos (chimmike)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chimmike »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
uh...heat of gas engines? Care to explain that?
Porsche uses variable vane turbos on the 997, and if I'm not mistaken, they're on a few other cars now too. </TD></TR></TABLE>
diesel doesn't generate the heat gas does. the 997 is the only gas VNT application as of right now
uh...heat of gas engines? Care to explain that?
Porsche uses variable vane turbos on the 997, and if I'm not mistaken, they're on a few other cars now too. </TD></TR></TABLE>
diesel doesn't generate the heat gas does. the 997 is the only gas VNT application as of right now
06-27-2008, 05:53 AM
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Re: Variable Vein Turbos (TiAL)
im about to run a garrett vnt on my 2.4 liter sr20... we'll see how it goes. i just have to fiddle with vein control, since the garrett uses a pwm signal.... im hoping i could almost set it up like a boost controller.
06-27-2008, 06:48 AM
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Re: Variable Vein Turbos (TiAL)
IIRC chrysler either used them in the early 90s or experimented with them.
I forget where I read that. I thought the 335i used VNT's as does the GT-R?
I forget where I read that. I thought the 335i used VNT's as does the GT-R?
06-27-2008, 07:05 AM
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Re: Variable Vein Turbos (chimmike)
the 335i just uses 2 standard ihi turbos... i believe they are td04-13t's. with the exhaust housing cast as part of the exhaust manifold.
chrysler used them back in the day... the vanes were hooked up to a vacuum actuator, much like a wastegate. i still believe these had internal wastegates though
chrysler used them back in the day... the vanes were hooked up to a vacuum actuator, much like a wastegate. i still believe these had internal wastegates though
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06-27-2008, 07:08 AM
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Re: Variable Vein Turbos (wantboost)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wantboost »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
chrysler used them back in the day... the vanes were hooked up to a vacuum actuator, much like a wastegate. i still believe these had internal wastegates though</TD></TR></TABLE>
that's what I thought. They seemed to be pretty successful, but I heard there were reliability issues, materials technology hadn't caught up to the design idea yet.
chrysler used them back in the day... the vanes were hooked up to a vacuum actuator, much like a wastegate. i still believe these had internal wastegates though</TD></TR></TABLE>
that's what I thought. They seemed to be pretty successful, but I heard there were reliability issues, materials technology hadn't caught up to the design idea yet.
06-27-2008, 07:08 AM
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Re: Variable Vein Turbos (chimmike)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chimmike »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IIRC chrysler either used them in the early 90s or experimented with them.
I forget where I read that. I thought the 335i used VNT's as does the GT-R?</TD></TR></TABLE>
honda has a 'system' in the RDX that uses a door, but it is never variable, it's more of an on/off switch.
the 335 and GTR are both normal
I forget where I read that. I thought the 335i used VNT's as does the GT-R?</TD></TR></TABLE>
honda has a 'system' in the RDX that uses a door, but it is never variable, it's more of an on/off switch.
the 335 and GTR are both normal
06-27-2008, 10:26 AM
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Re: Variable Vein Turbos (TiAL)
I've been wanting to make a VNT of sorts like the RDX turbo. Basicly you take a normal divided turbine, add a flapper that closes one side (preferably at an angle for better flow), then leave it closed until you're almost at full boost. This would work better for maximizing spool time, but by using a divided manifold and A/R housing 2x larger than normal, you'd maximize horsepower w/o reducing response much, if at all.
There looks to be a HUGE amount of improvement to be made on that BMW. I bet those turbine inlets are smaller than my sohc's exhaust ports.
There looks to be a HUGE amount of improvement to be made on that BMW. I bet those turbine inlets are smaller than my sohc's exhaust ports.
06-27-2008, 11:09 AM
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Re: Variable Vein Turbos (kauai96)
yeah, i remember reading somewhere about the RDX having a variable geometery turbo system. but that system looks different, from what ive read though it definatley uses some of the theory from a varible geomtry turbo system. and the reason VV turbo systems are almost exclusivley used on diesels is because of exausht temp, typically gas exausht can reach 950C where as diesels stay more around 750c-800c. It definatley can be done its just not to many people put research in until now. Garret developed it for Chrysler but it was limite production. also any word on the new VV turbo from garret?? how well they work etc.? And what about a marine turbo? it would work i think if could find one small enough.
06-27-2008, 11:39 AM
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Re: Variable Vein Turbos (TiAL)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TiAL »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
honda has a 'system' in the RDX that uses a door, but it is never variable, it's more of an on/off switch.
the 335 and GTR are both normal
</TD></TR></TABLE>
someone pay me my money, lol
honda has a 'system' in the RDX that uses a door, but it is never variable, it's more of an on/off switch.
the 335 and GTR are both normal
</TD></TR></TABLE>someone pay me my money, lol
06-28-2008, 07:52 PM
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Re: Variable Vein Turbos (wantboost)
i have a friend who works for Garrett, last time i talked to him he said to make this technology affordable to the average user is a bit far away for now but that was over a year ago, i might ask him again...
06-29-2008, 01:40 PM
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Re: Variable Vein Turbos (kauai96)
I asked this question on another forum aages ago.
I used to run a VNT on a previous turbocharged 4cyl car (none honda petrol) and the results where phenominal. The reason for using the VNT was because the engine was only a 1.4 and originally ran a T2, so running anything bigger than a T25 would be laggy. with the VNT i could get full boost (18psi) by 1700rpm and it would pull right to the limiter. With the previous T25 turbo i had, i would only get full boost by 4.5k and the limiter was at 7k so was quite a small powerband.
It takes a lot of fiddling with the veins to get it working how you want, and it might be worth you running an external wastegate because with the veins just being controlled by the actuator you will get massive boost spikes which are even more severe the more closed you set the veins for the low rpm boost.
I used to run a VNT on a previous turbocharged 4cyl car (none honda petrol) and the results where phenominal. The reason for using the VNT was because the engine was only a 1.4 and originally ran a T2, so running anything bigger than a T25 would be laggy. with the VNT i could get full boost (18psi) by 1700rpm and it would pull right to the limiter. With the previous T25 turbo i had, i would only get full boost by 4.5k and the limiter was at 7k so was quite a small powerband.
It takes a lot of fiddling with the veins to get it working how you want, and it might be worth you running an external wastegate because with the veins just being controlled by the actuator you will get massive boost spikes which are even more severe the more closed you set the veins for the low rpm boost.
06-29-2008, 08:36 PM
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Re: Variable Vein Turbos (kauai96)
We've got a couple of brand new VNT25 Turbos from Garrett, that we want to play with this technology. We've looked at it a little, but the project just hasn't risen to the top of our project list yet.
An active control system is required, in order to get the full benefit of the variability.
On a recent episode of Trucks!, they did an upgraded on a turbo diesel, where they installed a control box that closed down the vanes as a braking assist function. I'll bet a reverse engineering of that system would yield some benefits in making a control system for the VNT turbos.
We'd be willing to collaborate with a few industrious folks, to see what can be discovered. Or if someone wants to pick up a VNT25 for their own research project, just let us know.
Craig
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Modified by TunerToys at 3:15 PM 6/30/2008
An active control system is required, in order to get the full benefit of the variability.
On a recent episode of Trucks!, they did an upgraded on a turbo diesel, where they installed a control box that closed down the vanes as a braking assist function. I'll bet a reverse engineering of that system would yield some benefits in making a control system for the VNT turbos.
We'd be willing to collaborate with a few industrious folks, to see what can be discovered. Or if someone wants to pick up a VNT25 for their own research project, just let us know.
Craig
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Check out our For Sale Threads!
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Modified by TunerToys at 3:15 PM 6/30/2008
06-29-2008, 10:00 PM
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Re: (Sr420Det)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Sr420Det »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would love to hear more on how you actually control the veins. WantBOOST could you feel me in.</TD></TR></TABLE>
on the ford garrett's (off of the 6.0 powerstrokes) its a 12v PWM signal, what the exact pulse width is i dont know yet... no one will tell me. so im just going to rig up a test rig to figure it out... but the with the one on the ford, the vanes are moved by oil pressure from the turbo feedline, all the pwm signal does is control a solenoid that regulates oil flow...
as for other turbos, im not 100% sure
i'd love to pick up a vnt25 for testing... but the only thing i have small enough to put it on is an 05 yamaha r1, lol
on the ford garrett's (off of the 6.0 powerstrokes) its a 12v PWM signal, what the exact pulse width is i dont know yet... no one will tell me. so im just going to rig up a test rig to figure it out... but the with the one on the ford, the vanes are moved by oil pressure from the turbo feedline, all the pwm signal does is control a solenoid that regulates oil flow...
as for other turbos, im not 100% sure
i'd love to pick up a vnt25 for testing... but the only thing i have small enough to put it on is an 05 yamaha r1, lol
07-01-2008, 08:21 PM
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I was planning on using a garrett turbo off a 6.0l Powerstroke as well. I work at ford dealership and can get one at a discount. I was working on a PWM controller for the turbo. I have not had a chance to test it out, but if anyone wants the schematic for what I have so far just let me know.
07-01-2008, 10:07 PM
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Re: (wantboost)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wantboost »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
on the ford garrett's (off of the 6.0 powerstrokes) its a 12v PWM signal, what the exact pulse width is i dont know yet... no one will tell me. so im just going to rig up a test rig to figure it out... but the with the one on the ford, the vanes are moved by oil pressure from the turbo feedline, all the pwm signal does is control a solenoid that regulates oil flow...
as for other turbos, im not 100% sure
i'd love to pick up a vnt25 for testing... but the only thing i have small enough to put it on is an 05 yamaha r1, lol</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know that the operating range of the solenoid is anywhere from 15%-85% duty cycle. 15% being open, less exhaust back pressure, more flow used as higher rpms and 85% being closed vanes causing back pressure to rise, forcing the lesser amount of flow to pick up velocity aiding in producing desired boost levels.
I am very interested in trying a project such as this out.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by trentreznor321 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but if anyone wants the schematic for what I have so far just let me know.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I would be very interested
on the ford garrett's (off of the 6.0 powerstrokes) its a 12v PWM signal, what the exact pulse width is i dont know yet... no one will tell me. so im just going to rig up a test rig to figure it out... but the with the one on the ford, the vanes are moved by oil pressure from the turbo feedline, all the pwm signal does is control a solenoid that regulates oil flow...
as for other turbos, im not 100% sure
i'd love to pick up a vnt25 for testing... but the only thing i have small enough to put it on is an 05 yamaha r1, lol</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know that the operating range of the solenoid is anywhere from 15%-85% duty cycle. 15% being open, less exhaust back pressure, more flow used as higher rpms and 85% being closed vanes causing back pressure to rise, forcing the lesser amount of flow to pick up velocity aiding in producing desired boost levels.
I am very interested in trying a project such as this out.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by trentreznor321 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but if anyone wants the schematic for what I have so far just let me know.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I would be very interested
07-02-2008, 07:07 AM
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Re: (MidShipCivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wasn't this technology not very reliable? </TD></TR></TABLE>
As far as diesels go. Its very reliable
As far as diesels go. Its very reliable
07-02-2008, 09:48 AM
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Re: (MidShipCivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MidShipCivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wasn't this technology not very reliable? </TD></TR></TABLE>
When Porsche was developing the turbo's for the 997. they were having problems with heat killing them. They then developed a different mounting point to help dissipate the heat. No issues with the production models of these turbo's.
When Porsche was developing the turbo's for the 997. they were having problems with heat killing them. They then developed a different mounting point to help dissipate the heat. No issues with the production models of these turbo's.