compwc18

Is it possible to run a Supercharger and a Turbocharger at the same time??? I was wondering because it seems like u could since the piping from a TUrbo comes off of the Intake Manifold and the SUpercharger is basically a intake manifold?? Please let me know...

Daniel

it's called twincharging. The Meguiar's Integra has it as well as the HKS MKI Toyota MR2. they used the factory SC with one of their turbochargers. it was in SCC in a '97 or '98 issue ... or migh've been Turbo and Hi-Tech Performance. one of those.

compwc18

Is it possible to do for a street legal vehicle? And how much money would it cost to do that???

Ash J. Williams

Street legal? legal where? here in LA if you ain't got a carb sticker and if the techie doesn't like the way you look, you fail visual. i doubt having an originally NA car twincharged pass visual is a good chance.
as far as how much? take whatever you make flipping burgers at micydee's multiply by two years and then add another 200 that you won't have. that's how much.
in other words, unless making a crazy off road show/race (although, which sancture would you race it at?), and twice the amount you think it'll take plus another loan, stick to honda vtech powah.
stan

boosted hybrid

There is no way that the jrsc/turbo would work together in the configuration off the shelf. The incoming air from the turbocharger would hit the jrsc blades and would a major restriction for the intake of the engine. A secondary intake would have to be created, and when the jrsc made full boost, it closed bypassing the jrsc allowing the turbocharged air to enter the intake ports. Its not all that complicated, it was something i was contemplating to create a few years back. Anything is possible. Also, about the jrsc intake temps, by creating the secondary intake port for the turbocharged air, that air would be intercooled. The jrsc would only be coming into the engine till around 3-4rpm. There would be no need for anything over 6psi on the jrsc, the wheels will spin and and that beatiful torque curve you would have would be worthless. I have heard that the meguiar's car was all a made up story, none of it actually worked. More just a show car. There wasnt any clear pictures of how they accomplished the twin charger system, namely the intake manifold. Also claiming 20lbs on an internally stock 11:1 compression engine is quite a feat. More of the reason i didnt think it was a functioning set-up.

Daniel

well, that's just sad. Damn Meguiar's. . . .

BudaKai

The supercharger would compound the boost from the turbo. Imagine it this way you increase the air-volume ratio by 3 then you go and increase that by another .75 (not exact just guesses)that's how the boost would work out.SCR has dick to do with it you can get any SCR to work with boost with a good enough design and fuel delivery. Endyn has modified the crap Eaton unit with the Jackson kits to have better flow efficiencies, IE lower intake temps under boost. Mix that with an efficient air-liquid intercooler and alcohol injection and you'd have one hell of a system there.
Tuning it would be a very slow and cautious process. Fancy equations just blind you from the truth of physics that nothing is predictable unless it's been done before.
It was called DUAL-CHARGING not twin-charging. Twin-charging would be with two of the same exact turbos or superchargers; hence the name twin.


[Modified by tzsir, 12:44 PM 12/8/2002]

turbopanda

a couple years back, I saw a supercharged and turbocharged EG hatchback in an option2 magazine.. didnt make an awful lot of power though.. i guess the SC creates restrictions for the turbo..

Daniel

Well, when HKS did it on the MKI MR2, they called it the TwinCharged MR2. that's why i called it "twin-charging."

and now that i think about it, i think it was in a '96 issue, not a '97.

BudaKai

If you really think about it the supercharger isn't the restriction on that engine the stock bottom end and the available tuning devices of the time is what held them back. If your doing something nobody else has done before you don't exactly have any idea on how far you can push it before it let's go, and that can get expensive. A supercharger would not restrict it; it pulls air in the first place. If anything it was the charge pipes and TB restricting the flow. Did they show the torque curve that it put down? The engine would have to be able to flow a lot of air also with-out choking or running up the injector cyles too high.

I understand where you came from with the twin-charging thing. I've been looking into dual charging my B16 and putting it into my '90 hatch.

boosted hybrid

Obviously you can get a supercharger to work with a turbo, hey any body out there can purchase a turbo kit and a supercharget kit and slap it onto there engines. Making them work together as an efficient system is an entirely different story. The supercharger will be a major restriction to the incoming air from the turbocharger, plain and simple. The supercharger blades are spinning at a fixed amount by the belt driven system. You cannot spin them any faster than the belt driven system can go, or damage to the blades or other internals of the supercharger will occur. Besides trying to spin the blades faster, the blades are the restriction into the combustion chamber. In order to get the turbocharged air into the intake ports, another secondary enterance is required, namely a secondary bypass from the supercharger manifold. This is how the twin-charged mr2 was accomplished.

As far as the jrsc, they are unefficient. There is no way you can argue the efficiency rating on the eaton blowers. They are nice for a linear powerband, but no way in hell that they can be modified to the point of efficiency compariable to a turbocharger. Endyn did modify the superchargers to become more efficient, yet there still wasnt that much of an increase in power. Yes you can add an intercooler and water/alky injection, but the supercharger still takes power to make power and the overall efficiency still isnt as great as a turbo. There is no way that a roots style blower will ever be competitive to a turbocharged system. Other style of superchargers, namely centrifugal could be but the system we are discussing is the roots style blowers.

Twin-charing, dual charging, it doesnt matter its the same thing. I didnt know that there was a dictionary definition of supercharger/turbocharger system. If you do a search on google, twin charging and dual charging brings up just about the same amount of hits. Same ****, different bag.

Thermodynamics has been proven, and will continue to stand to the tests of time. I will run my equations all day long, they are proven and accurate way of portraying theoritical answers to the universe. Anything is possible, but i am sure when it does become possible the scientific community can explain the phenominon that occur with exsisting equations and theories. Your not going to re-invent physics or thermodynamics with an otto cyle, with any means of induction or with the working fluid (methanol, nitrous, etc).

falcongsr

afropuff are you a regular on clubsi?

boosted hybrid

That really would be a worthless system. A turbo usually yields midrange and topend, while the centrifugal system yields a linear pull but on 4 cylinders really makes power at the top end. Why would you want to have the power band emphazied at the top end? You could just easily accomplish this with say a T-66 with a street driven car, the lag would be bad, but much simplier of a system. The whole purpose of the roots style blower/turbocharger system is to have seamless powerband. You would have a wicked area under the curve, making the car insanely fast. The N-1 rally cars back in the eighties used this combination to make 500-600whp engines, until to many people were being killed and the group was discontinued.

RicerRacing69

this question seems to come up at least once a month, everymonth for the year i've been a memeber on here. Use the search tool.

BudaKai

Umm yeah okay my point is void,but when it's done I'll just show you okay. One of two identical or similar people, animals, or things; a counterpart. That's the definition I believe fits this instance. Sorry I'm extremely bored and can't go anywhere my car is sitting outside with-out a fuel pump right now. If you upgrade to the full Endyn kit it does make more power. They offer a system that brings the boost up to around 17psi. If you are really into physics you would understand that it's the friction of compressing the air that causes the heat. I say those equations are useless because in my 5 years of physics classes I've done nothing but prove the vast majority of them (mainly one with thermodynamics) aren't accurate enough when dealing with that many particles. If you look at the the team L'natural cars,and the engines that R&D has been building according to your rules and equations it shouldn't run. I don't put rules on thermodynamics I push them to see what needs to be done in order to find the cracks in the theories and I've been proving them wrong for 3 years now. Evolution is the continual adaptation to the enviroment that makes each generation progressively more intelligent than the last. If they were always right with these equations there wouldn't be any research going on for anything that involved gravity, inertia, electro-magnetism, or any of the other billions of topics in physics. Thats why we call them Theorums. Science is just that; the continual scientific aproach at the rules of the universe as we can understand it. Your equations don't mean dick to an engine builder that has built engines with 17:1 SCR that run on pump gas.
If you get offended by that then maybe your not sub-consciously confident that your right. I don't care if you listen to me or even take into consideration anything I have said here. I just wish people would stop being so PIG-HEADED, and understand that we as humans are just now starting to understand how our world works and we are just on the tip of the iceberg the size of the universe. We have a long way to go before we actually can map out the rules of physics. Remember everything is connected in someway. that's something I know they don't teach you in the old methods of teaching.

If you wish to further this discussion please feel free to IM me.

-- Thanks Dave


[Modified by tzsir, 6:12 PM 12/8/2002]

boosted hybrid

High compression ratios are possibly, anything is possible with an engine. The advancements that are being made are technological advancements, not advancements in the field of science. Thermodynamics hasnt changed, the equations are all still valid for that high of a compression ratio. I am looking at my thermodynamics book right now, and it states "otto cycle engines are not as efficient as diesel cycle engines, this is due to the compression ratio. If the otto cycle could reach the same compression ratios, it would be far more efficient. The limiting factors are octane of fuel, combustion chamber design, etc...". So you can make a better combustion chamber, piston design, whatever that doesnt actually change anything in the scientific community. I ran a 11:1 compression built engine on the street, on pump gas about 1 1/2 ago with no problems. Everyone told me that i couldnt do it with turbo, that it would blow up. I wanted to push the envelope and see if it was possible. Now everyone seems to think that 11:1 is the limiting compression ratio, when you probably could run more. Its in the timing, and the way the combustion chamber is design. There is no doubt in my mind that there is better designs that havent been invented yet. My point is that you are not going to change anything with a technological advancement in the scientific community, the laws have been proven time and time again. So far no one has been able to disprove thermodynamic laws, and the otto cyle has been around for about a 100 years. I am not arguing with you, I am agreeing with you on the fact that people dont have open minds, but through pushing the envelope of technology scientific laws are not going to change.

BudaKai

I said nothing of the laws I was mentioning the rules and equations I believe they are too non-specific to be of any use to anyone. Math is great as a two dimensional tool but in the use of engines I believe they are useless because there are way too many variables to count in the combustion cycles. Such as the air temps, fuel variances, fuel temps, static charges, etc., etc. . I don't consider 11:1 comp. as really being that though. Remember Technology is the use of science in the manufacturing process which are both advancing everyday. The Ottoman cycle was just the easiest way to do it at the time, and so became the standard. Diesel didn't appeal to the masses because of the smell. Octane doesn't really matter with compression. Diesels use sky high compresion ratios with a very low octane fuel. The scientific community changes every time there is an advance with the internal combustion engine because the needs change. Advances in the scientific community are what changes way things are built. Face it we pour more into the engines then anything else that we work on.

Sorry if it's choppy but I decided to do some homework. My passion is often veiwed as aggresiveness so sorry if I ever seem rude or as a dick. I love this kind of work.

BudaKai

Stick to ethics your better at them. What he said about the N-1 was incorrect. N-1 is a rally series yes but not the series with Dual-charging as it has already been coined as. It was the group B rally series that featured this type of boosting. It was the crash of the Lancia team with driver Toivonen and his navigator Sergio Cresto at the Tour de Corse rally. They crashed and burned . The Lancia team withdrew from the series followed by Ford and Audi. That was in 1986 which was the last year of the Group B rally series. N-1 was a more modern series that is still ran as an endurance race on the road circuits in Japan. I've been into Rallying for a long time that's what got me into cars. I had to look it up in my record books because I knew you were wrong on that one sorry it took my six or seven hours to find it but I found it. I even have a diagram of how they ran the turbo threw the blow just like I thought. I knew that idea came from some-where. BooYaa you're probably sleeping now though.

Herminator

This has probably been posted here before. Enjoy if you have not seen it already.

Supercharged, Twin Turboed, Water Alcohol Injection, 8-Port Nitrous system
http://adcache.collectorcartraderonl...0/29679880.htm




[Modified by Herminator, 10:31 AM 12/9/2002]


[Modified by Herminator, 10:31 AM 12/9/2002]


[Modified by Herminator, 10:32 AM 12/9/2002]

Replica

How would someone tune two sources of boost? 2 FMU's? hahaha.

I dunno, just seems like it'd be a nightmare to figure out.

falcongsr

i doubt you even would drive a monster like that. so it doesnt really matter.

Finest

Oh lord, not another "twin" something or another induction setup post?! First it was the twin turbo GSR, now its a Twin charged setup.

When will these kids realize that the "MORE IS BETTER" approach is beaten to death already!

If you want more low end, RESIZE your damn turbo. If you want more top end, RESIZE YOUR TURBO! If you just want a little low end, just a little mid range, and just a little top end...THEN RESIZE THE ***** to shove up your a$$, cuz you can't have everything! Oh, and let's not forget the "and make it street legal" part...cuz everyone expects to drive this monster of a car on the streets.

[/rant]

Finest

BUHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!!!!!

boosted hybrid

Alright you got me on that one. I wasnt 100% sure, and I knew that the N-1 series was a japanese based racing series but wasnt sure if that had such a class in the rally group. For some reason i thought it was n-1, oh well my mistake. I am a big fan of rally as well, always posted to speed channel to see every race.

Finest

So you're going to compound your lagging turbo setup with an even laggier centrifugal SC? What's the purpose? What are you trying to accomplish by combining the two induction systems?