Mad Cow

I know there's more to it than I am seeing, but how much more? With a program like Uberdata (or whatever else), you can set how much you want to retard boost per PSI of boost.. that sorts out your ignition values. Then you plug in the wideband, do a pull.. look at the a/f ratio and play with it untill you get it where you want it (11.6:1 or however conservative you decide).

What else is there? I just don't understand the logic behind paying someone $150+/hr to tune. Help me understand, I know I must be missing something. What else is involved?

I'm not saying that tuning isn't worth $150/hr, I'm just trying to get a grasp on why it is worth that much money. What more are YOU as a tuner doing, that I can't do?

b18bturbo

good class for you would be the efi101 level 1 tuning class. It will defintiely enlighten you to what else there is to do.

PM-Performance

theres alot more involved than you think .

TurboJesse

a big part of it is troubleshooting...

Mad Cow

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by itr206 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">theres alot more involved than you think . </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, I realize there must be as I said, I want to be enlightened...

Enlighten me.

TravSi

Me and my friend do all the tuning on my car, I would not trust anyone but myself and danl to tune my car....even at the dyno we make the changes all they do is run the computer when to start and stop the dyno....I think its good to learn to tune and things to look for and listen for and have a good idea what your doing because FI is not something you can just do you have to have some knowledge on the parts and how they work or you are just kicking yurself in the end....

Johnyquest

Simply put, you've hit the nail on the head. There is nothing more to tuning than you just said. It's plain and simple. If you know what's going on inside of the engine, and fully understand uberdata, why you retard the ignition, why you add and subtract fuel... You can do it.
Think about it like this. Hondata used to be $1000. Now we have uberdate. Tuning used to be $150/hr. Now we have the truth. Get a wideband, and you'll be fine. It's NOT rocket science! If a carb can do it, you and your computer can do it!

Good luck!

TurboJesse

the places charging $150hr include dyno time...Can you get that for free? Most hondata tuners that do street tuning charge ALOT less than that an hr.

Mad Cow

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mpir3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the places charging $150hr include dyno time...Can you get that for free? Most hondata tuners that do street tuning charge ALOT less than that an hr.</TD></TR></TABLE>

True, didn't think to factor that in. Good responses, this is more along the lines of what I was looking for. Now where are the people that are going to tell me that tuning needs to be done by a 'tuner'?

Don't forget to back your opinions up, if you can.

racinskittle

So all you need is a Wideband with datalogging (like the techedge 2.0) to get your A/F ratio.

How do you know how much timing to take out though? This is what i've always wondered. I've seen the ignition maps? on uberdata and dont understand when and why you need to change those values.

Burner, chips, eprom and your all set?

This right?

Enlighten me too

falcongsr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnyquest &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Now we have the truth. Get a wideband, and you'll be fine. It's NOT rocket science! If a carb can do it, you and your computer can do it!

</TD></TR></TABLE>

umm... i am all for this power to the people thing, but honestly a lot more people screw their **** up trying to do this on their own than you'd imagine.

bottom line is, dont do it unless you know what the hell you're doing, and if you're not sure THEN YOU DONT KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE DOING. i tune my own ****, and i've helped others, i've never made $$ tuning and i am not encouraging people not to learn this stuff, cause i think its awesome the more people who understand it, but it does take a keen mind and good problem solving skills and GOOD perception of whats going on, especially on a DYNO where **** happens fast.


if tuning is getting easier and if it gets to the point where "anyone can do it" its cause a lot of people have paved the way over the years to get to this point. a lot of people have blown up ****, sunk tons of $$$ in to their hobbies and spent countless hours learning, helping, and making stuff for us to use.

Johnyquest

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MadCow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

True, didn't think to factor that in. Good responses, this is more along the lines of what I was looking for. Now where are the people that are going to tell me that tuning needs to be done by a 'tuner'?

Don't forget to back your opinions up, if you can. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The only time a professional "tuner" becomes absolutley necessary is when you are looking to get EVERY single possible pony out of your setup. When every tenth matters, like when you race in a league, for money. When your just like me, driving around on the street, looking for kicks, and the occasional track trip for fun, you can do it yourself. Tuning to make the car seem to run good and strong to anyone who gets behind the wheel is easy; extracting that last 5-10% out of your setup is where the real, professional, expensive tuners come in... and hell, they **** up pretty often too. Just look @ the # of blown motor threads? Why let someone you don't know blow your motor? I'd rather do it myself!

Good luck!

Silverbeast

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by racinskittle &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So all you need is a Wideband with datalogging (like the techedge 2.0) to get your A/F ratio.

How do you know how much timing to take out though? This is what i've always wondered. I've seen the ignition maps? on uberdata and dont understand when and why you need to change those values.

Burner, chips, eprom and your all set?

This right?

Enlighten me too </TD></TR></TABLE>


Like everyone has said, efi101 or get trained by AEM or Hondata, this will give you an idea of what needs to/should be done while tuning.

Finest

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MadCow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Now where are the people that are going to tell me that tuning needs to be done by a 'tuner'?

Don't forget to back your opinions up, if you can. </TD></TR></TABLE>

1) Not everyone has the funds to buy a standalone + laptop + wideband. That's on top of the dyno time.

2) If you're a tuning "virgin", where do you know where to start? Base maps are fine, but different setups call for different tuning. Most qualified "tuners" have seen and worked with most major setups and can determine where to start, instead of having to spend an extra 4-5 hours on the dyno just for base setup! That alone will save you at least $200-400.

3) No one knows everything. That is why we all make mistakes. For someone who works and tunes cars on a daily basis, it's safe to say that they've seen it all and know how to deal with it.

Basically, you're paying for their experience and knowledge. If you feel that you're able to tune it yourself, then by all means go for it. Nobody's forcing you to pay them. But when you blow your ish up on the dyno, that $150/hr would seem like chump change compared to a full rebuild.

Johnyquest

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98CTRCoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

2) If you're a tuning "virgin", where do you know where to start? Base maps are fine, but different setups call for different tuning. Most qualified "tuners" have seen and worked with most major setups and can determine where to start, instead of having to spend an extra 4-5 hours on the dyno just for base setup! That alone will save you at least $200-400.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is the part that gets me. If two motors are identical, a conservative tune will run both equally well. If two motors aren't identical, but similar, a basemap for the general config will be a fine starting point. Then, from there, you tune. People are always saying "two identical setups require different tunes." Oh yeah? Call up honda and tell them that they've been ******* up from day one. Tell them that the p28 in my car can't POSSIBLY run my neigbors 95 civic ex. See, my car's a 95 civic EX too... But it has to be different, right, because two motors are never the same? WRONG!

That's why, once car's gain popularity, they can start to make kits that work on EVERY car, with one tune, and put out a specific amount of horsepower: A la, greddy kit, edelbrock kit... etc. It's not that it isn't true, it's just that we still haven't reached the level of say, the GN. Only time will sort through. That's why when you go to build a chevy 350, people say with these pistons, these heads, timing @ X degrees, and this carb, and this cam, you will make XXXhp. That's why you can order a 400hp package for the GN, a stage III kit, etc etc etc, and it's bolton, plug, play, and go.

Again, I'll restate it: It only becomes criticial when you are looking to extract that LAST 5% from your engine. That last 5% that will take that last 10th of your QM and get you the win, in heated competition, when reliabiltiy just isn't as important as winning. A semi-conservative tune on a d16 with a t3 @ 10psi will work on ANY d16 with a t3 @ 10psi, and that's all their is too it. Once every combination has been tried, you will be able to go online and say... I'm putting together a b16, 9:1, stock head, inline pro, sc50, 10psi. Anyone got a map? And you'll load it, and it will run good. And you'll make just about the same power as the last guy.

Good luck to all!

Hoosier Daddy

Very nice information in this post! Thanks to everyone, especially Johnyquest

Mad Cow

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hoosier Daddy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Very nice information in this post! Thanks to everyone, especially Johnyquest </TD></TR></TABLE>

Agreed. Seems to be a tad one-sided though. All of the professional tuners must be at work tuning.

I'll bump it up later to get more opinions... these professional tuners need to plead their cases.

0xenocron

Tuning is 90% troubleshooting and 10% changing the values for fuel and spark.

If you understand the ins and outs of how cumbustion happens (in every respect and not just when it comes to a car you know, like a honda) then you might be called a 'tuner'

EFI101 class is great!

Now, Ben Strader is a 'tuner'

TurboJesse

i agree with what jonnyquest has said for the most part, (although i do run hondata on my honda and paid to get it tuned, which i was VERY pleased with the outcome and price). But look at FI kits for other car's, IE. VW and BMW. I have a friend running APR stg. 3 on his golf, its just a generic pre-programed chip that goes out with every kit they sell, his car runs great. Im sure with "custom" tuning he might pickup 5-10 HP but for him its not worth the trouble. Also Active Autowerkes $10k+ turbo kits also use a reprogramed ecu. They individually tune some of the cars that get the kit installed there, but there are plenty that just recieve the kit and call it a day...

danl

I wish tuning was as easy as everybody seems to think. Then we could make a cookie cutter set of steps so that everybody can tune their car.

The fact is that it is just something that involved a lot of aspects and comprimises. Their are also different methods, and combinations of methods. THen their are things that you can't describe. How do you explain to someone how a car is supposed to feel under boost? When to lift? I mean its as complicated as you make it but still.

trbob16a

I think tuning is pretty easy. I built my setup myself then took it to a good builder in the area to fix some oil leaks. We also put it on the dyno and he tuned it for me up to a bar of boost. I just watched him, read the hondata website again and again, and now I do street tuning on my own. It just takes a lot of time. However, for a lot of people it may be cheaper to just have a pro do it. If you don't want to spend the money on a wideband or will have to pay to have it installed then you're probably better off just having someone tune it for you. However, you will never get part throttle down just right unless you spend a lot of money. I want 35mpg out of my b16 so I datalog when on trips or around town, then analyze the maps and make adjustments as needed.

For me, hondata 4b and fjo were the right decision. I can retune due to varying weather temperatures, at varying levels of boost, and as I change my setup. In all honesty though, I think most people that lack the resources, patience, and desire to learn required to make this work.

sCeRaXn

Yall have to also keep in mind that not all engines are the same. Lets say a person has a b18 with 125,000 miles and he turbos it with a drag kit. Now im sure it has been beaten on its whole life...the rings prolly arent looking too good...and you know that there will be alot of carbon buildup(which increases chance of detonation). Do you think that this car will out down as much power as a brand new b18? Probably not...in fact ill be willing to bet that the tuning on each car would be completely different.

Now if you got a base map that was prolly designed for a brand new healthy running engine and you used it on your old beaten down one...it wouldnt run as good and prolly wouldnt make near as much power. Just my .2 cents though.

Sean

psileepR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98CTRCoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Basically, you're paying for their experience and knowledge. If you feel that you're able to tune it yourself, then by all means go for it. Nobody's forcing you to pay them. But when you blow your ish up on the dyno, that $150/hr would seem like chump change compared to a full rebuild. </TD></TR></TABLE>

i dont think many people can afford to blow their car up. Since tuning is a lot of trial and error mistakes can happen. i totally agree with the above statement^^^

lazerus

if you spend enough time reading and asking questions on the internet, and reading books, you can become knowledgable enough to accurately and safely tune your own standalone/hondata/uberdata/e-manage etc.

Tuning a fuel/ignition computer is really easy, it just takes a good while to learn how easy it actually is

Bailhatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by lazerus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">\ it just takes a good while to learn how easy it actually is </TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats true of so many things. knowledge takes time.