Timing Belt Importance?
11-11-2003, 04:07 AM
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Timing Belt Importance?
When going with a mild turbo setup is the timing belt more important than N/A? Is there more pressure on it or anything more stressing?
11-11-2003, 06:37 AM
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Re: Timing Belt Importance? (RedTegLS)
I would think it would be the same, stress on the timing belt is based on rpms, not power or compression. Somebody correct me if i'm wrong. But it seems the aftermarket timing belts I've seen have been for high revving NA motors.
11-11-2003, 08:21 AM
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That makes sence. The belt is connected to the cam gears correct? So I guess there wont be more pressure or stress it would just matter if it revved higher.
11-11-2003, 09:34 AM
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Re: Timing Belt Importance? (RedTegLS)
Just remember that if your timing belt ever snaps, your motor is toast. Now that's important. It just doesn't make sense that people would spend thousands of dollars on their motors, but yet they would cheap out on the belt.
I would get stronger timing belt like Power Enterprise or TODA strong belt for added peace of mind.
I would get stronger timing belt like Power Enterprise or TODA strong belt for added peace of mind.
11-11-2003, 10:38 AM
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Re: Timing Belt Importance? (green_GSR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by green_GSR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just remember that if your timing belt ever snaps, your motor is toast. Now that's important. It just doesn't make sense that people would spend thousands of dollars on their motors, but yet they would cheap out on the belt.
I would get stronger timing belt like Power Enterprise or TODA strong belt for added peace of mind.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's true. Dont go cheap with OEM belts if you were to spend thousands of dollar to your motor. Yes High rev NA motor need a stronger timming belt due to the fact that they are running really aggressive lift cams then turbo set up are. But either way its always good to invest in a stronger belt turbo or not.
I would get stronger timing belt like Power Enterprise or TODA strong belt for added peace of mind.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's true. Dont go cheap with OEM belts if you were to spend thousands of dollar to your motor. Yes High rev NA motor need a stronger timming belt due to the fact that they are running really aggressive lift cams then turbo set up are. But either way its always good to invest in a stronger belt turbo or not.
11-11-2003, 11:25 AM
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Re: Timing Belt Importance? (SiBirdie)
actually alot of honda guys i know, 11.00 lsvtec, and a 12.8 integra lsvtec runs stock OEM rubber.
I don't think OEM is consider "cheap" by any means. It's pretty damn strong, alot of guys online and on this HT board say they don't make a difference.
I don't think OEM is consider "cheap" by any means. It's pretty damn strong, alot of guys online and on this HT board say they don't make a difference.
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11-11-2003, 11:32 AM
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I never thought OEM was cheap. Actually I was always under the impression they were the best! I wasnt even aware anyone made an aftermarket timing belt! My question was really weather or not to replace the belt before going to boost?
11-11-2003, 11:45 AM
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Re: (Lachean)
The toda / whoever else belt are SUCH A WASTE of money. Unless your revving to the sky, It's not needed, and i'd be tepted to say that even if you are, it's not needed. If a stock timing belt can deal with a b16 revving to 8000+ on a daily basis, with many going unchanged for over 75000 miles, I think that you could easily take it to 10k rpms daily and change your belt ever 25k miles. Go get a goodyear gatorback timing belt, it'll be like 40 bucks, and your done.
11-11-2003, 12:47 PM
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Re: (RudeLude)
[QUOTE=RudeLude]I never thought OEM was cheap. Actually I was always under the impression they were the best! I wasnt even aware anyone made an aftermarket timing belt! My question was really weather or not to replace the belt before going to boost? QUOTE]
Perhaps you didnt read all of the posts carefully so here is one again.
Perhaps you didnt read all of the posts carefully so here is one again.
11-11-2003, 05:41 PM
#15
Re: (99lspwr)
what about how fast your motor gets to a certain RPM?!? that hurts the life of the timing belt too i assume. i never thought about any of this till now...it's a good thing i caught this tread. i've got a spare timing belt laying in my basement...might be a good thing to change come spring time. but yeah getting back to what i was saying...having goobs of power and being able to to jump from 3k to 8k in less than a second will hurt the timing belt too right? maybe more than just revving to 10k with an all motor setup which should take a bit longer?
11-11-2003, 08:09 PM
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Re: (shermanyang)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by shermanyang »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what about how fast your motor gets to a certain RPM?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I was just about to ask this.
I was just about to ask this.
11-13-2003, 06:14 PM
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Re: (Boost Creep)
yeah, i thought about the accelaration of the motor too... but really it shouldn't be an issue. Honda and all the rest of the manufactures of timing belts fully understand that entire life of the motor and it's ability to run without breaking valves depends on this belt- it's lined with a steel belt and I'd pretty much bet it'll be fine. I took my 100k mile belt off to change it and it still looked good.... Breaking a timing belt is just a freak thing...
11-13-2003, 06:24 PM
#20
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Re: (Johnyquest)
the only time you should think about an aftermarket timing belt is when you turbocharge, supercharge, or inject with nitrous...your engine.
With any of these three variables you will in effect exceed the power ability of the stock timing belt. how? simple. physics.
Ok with forced induction of any kind you can expect a FASTER rate of acceleration of the rotating assembly...which affects the force exerted on the timing belt. The faster the rotating assembly accelerates, the more force in newtons applied to the timing belt. On average a stock sohc civic engine's timing belt is designed to be able to handle 15% more than stock power ratings...which is about 87hp-130hp. Nitrous, turbo, or supercharger will boost the power rating on average to about 30-50% more than stock ratings...
as you can this is going to be bad over time
the more power you apply to the timing belt the more it will stretch under that stress and the faster it will wear. You will see a shorter life span from a stock timing belt than from an aftermarket unit under boosted conditions of any kind.
With any of these three variables you will in effect exceed the power ability of the stock timing belt. how? simple. physics.
Ok with forced induction of any kind you can expect a FASTER rate of acceleration of the rotating assembly...which affects the force exerted on the timing belt. The faster the rotating assembly accelerates, the more force in newtons applied to the timing belt. On average a stock sohc civic engine's timing belt is designed to be able to handle 15% more than stock power ratings...which is about 87hp-130hp. Nitrous, turbo, or supercharger will boost the power rating on average to about 30-50% more than stock ratings...
as you can this is going to be bad over time
the more power you apply to the timing belt the more it will stretch under that stress and the faster it will wear. You will see a shorter life span from a stock timing belt than from an aftermarket unit under boosted conditions of any kind.
11-13-2003, 06:26 PM
#21
Re: Timing Belt Importance? (RedTegLS)
The OEM timing belt is very compariable to the toda/power enterprises. There claim to fame is that they have kevlar inserts in the rubber of the belt which give the belts extra strength. Cut an OEM belt open and look inside, its kevlar. The tensile strength is not as much as the higher kevlar content belts such as toda/power entreprises but the strength is not 200% stronger. The OEM belt is 100% sufficient for boosted applications.
The only real reason for running a stronger timing belt is for the higher lift, higher duration cams. At high rpms the tensile stress placed on the belt is quite high. If you are running stock profile cams (95% of boosted Hondas are) and the redline is kept under 10,000 you'll be quite fine with an OEM.
The only real reason for running a stronger timing belt is for the higher lift, higher duration cams. At high rpms the tensile stress placed on the belt is quite high. If you are running stock profile cams (95% of boosted Hondas are) and the redline is kept under 10,000 you'll be quite fine with an OEM.
11-13-2003, 06:28 PM
#22
Re: (stackz)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stackz »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With any of these three variables you will in effect exceed the power ability of the stock timing belt. how? simple. physics.
Ok with forced induction of any kind you can expect a FASTER rate of acceleration of the rotating assembly...which affects the force exerted on the timing belt. The faster the rotating assembly accelerates, the more force in newtons applied to the timing belt. On average a stock sohc civic engine's timing belt is designed to be able to handle 15% more than stock power ratings...which is about 87hp-130hp. Nitrous, turbo, or supercharger will boost the power rating on average to about 30-50% more than stock ratings...
as you can this is going to be bad over time
the more power you apply to the timing belt the more it will stretch under that stress and the faster it will wear. You will see a shorter life span from a stock timing belt than from an aftermarket unit under boosted conditions of any kind.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I just have to ask what difference in tensile stress does the timing belt experience if the cam duration and lift and kept the same? The ONLY factor that comes into play is the camshaft profiles, and rpm.
Ok with forced induction of any kind you can expect a FASTER rate of acceleration of the rotating assembly...which affects the force exerted on the timing belt. The faster the rotating assembly accelerates, the more force in newtons applied to the timing belt. On average a stock sohc civic engine's timing belt is designed to be able to handle 15% more than stock power ratings...which is about 87hp-130hp. Nitrous, turbo, or supercharger will boost the power rating on average to about 30-50% more than stock ratings...
as you can this is going to be bad over time
the more power you apply to the timing belt the more it will stretch under that stress and the faster it will wear. You will see a shorter life span from a stock timing belt than from an aftermarket unit under boosted conditions of any kind.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I just have to ask what difference in tensile stress does the timing belt experience if the cam duration and lift and kept the same? The ONLY factor that comes into play is the camshaft profiles, and rpm.
11-13-2003, 06:36 PM
#23
at the jetties fishin'
Re: (boosted hybrid)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted hybrid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I just have to ask what difference in tensile stress does the timing belt experience if the cam duration and lift and kept the same? The ONLY factor that comes into play is the camshaft profiles, and rpm.</TD></TR></TABLE>
no, cam profile itself has nothing to do with the timing belt...the cam profile simply helps to add power to the engine and help it make power faster. And it dictates the valve springs you will have to use with it to successfully retain your valvetrain geometry at high speed.
think of it this way:
if you have one engine that travels from 2200rpm to 7000rpm in 1.2 seconds
versus:
another engine of the same type that travels from 2200rpm to 7000rpm in 0.7 seconds....
which do you think will be exerting MORE force against the timing belt as it increases in rpm's??
the one that does the rpm increase in 0.7 seconds...
it's the same as if you grabbed a 10 pound bowling ball in your hand and swung it around in a circle as fast as you could and then did the same with a 16lb bowling ball...
you'd lose grip on the 16lb'er before the 10lb'er due to strength issues due to inertia and force applied.
I just have to ask what difference in tensile stress does the timing belt experience if the cam duration and lift and kept the same? The ONLY factor that comes into play is the camshaft profiles, and rpm.</TD></TR></TABLE>
no, cam profile itself has nothing to do with the timing belt...the cam profile simply helps to add power to the engine and help it make power faster. And it dictates the valve springs you will have to use with it to successfully retain your valvetrain geometry at high speed.
think of it this way:
if you have one engine that travels from 2200rpm to 7000rpm in 1.2 seconds
versus:
another engine of the same type that travels from 2200rpm to 7000rpm in 0.7 seconds....
which do you think will be exerting MORE force against the timing belt as it increases in rpm's??
the one that does the rpm increase in 0.7 seconds...
it's the same as if you grabbed a 10 pound bowling ball in your hand and swung it around in a circle as fast as you could and then did the same with a 16lb bowling ball...
you'd lose grip on the 16lb'er before the 10lb'er due to strength issues due to inertia and force applied.
11-13-2003, 06:44 PM
#25
Re: (stackz)
Let me break it down like this:
You have one input, two outputs on a timing belt. The crankshaft exterts a torque in one direction. The torque rotates the belt, rotating the two outputs or camshaft gears. Acting with opposite torque on the camshaft gears is the profile of both the duration and lift of the cam. The profile creates a negative torque on the cam gears. The difference of these torque in the x and y direction back through the camshaft creates a tensile force on the timing belt. The higher the rpm, the higher the opposite torque acting through the cam gears. The higher opposite torque comes from the profile of the cam; duration and lift. Its simple statics and dynamics.
You have one input, two outputs on a timing belt. The crankshaft exterts a torque in one direction. The torque rotates the belt, rotating the two outputs or camshaft gears. Acting with opposite torque on the camshaft gears is the profile of both the duration and lift of the cam. The profile creates a negative torque on the cam gears. The difference of these torque in the x and y direction back through the camshaft creates a tensile force on the timing belt. The higher the rpm, the higher the opposite torque acting through the cam gears. The higher opposite torque comes from the profile of the cam; duration and lift. Its simple statics and dynamics.