I have an old gt35r bought like 10 years ago that only has been used dynoed on my 84mm b16 making around 600 hp. This project turned out to be a never ending build and I am now looking to class the car in a timeattack racing class and began to search for compressor maps and power ratings. I then discovered that the compressor maps on Garretts site has changed.. Anyone know if they changed their design of the older cast compressor wheels?


Older map:


New compressor map:

I don´t know why the old map says 68mm.. Exducer is 82mm on the old one too. It has a 68mm inducier at the turbine side.. I think it is just a type o.

 

I think the old one didnt have anti surge housing. But still the old map looks better in my eyes.
Do you remember what rpm it started spooling? Im building a 84mm b16 now.

 

On that engine dyno and the 1.06 Ar housing that Full-Race recomended for my build it hit full boost at around 6500 rpm with ITR/CTR cams, race gas, ram horn, b16 head, 8,8:1 cr and agolden eagle intake manifold if I remember correctly.. It is by todays messures not the best turbo choise for this engine at all.. I will get a sleeved b18c at a later point though or maybe go k series.. The dyno was a home made manual controlled water turbine engine dyno that I am not sure of at all.. I will retune on e85, 0.82AR and pro1:s and some more compression on a dynopack hopefully this summer and enjoy the car after almost 10years in the work shop. If I get motivated I might build a new engine next winter..

Yes the old gt35r has a T04S compressor housing. I doubt that just the change of housing would change the grafs that much though.

 

Really full race recomended 1.06 on a B16? Wtf.

 

Yeah they did.. Maybe that was what they had in stock at the time.. I was a newbee back then and I trusted them I guess.. You live and learn..

 

They listed the turbine wheel inducer (68mm) on the old map, because there were several GT35Rs that used different turbine wheels at the time. They've retired those versions since, and now use the the compressor wheel exducer (as you stated) in the more recent map. The compressor wheel itself has not changed at all for over 18 years.

For Time attack class, that's too large of a turbo for a B16, as you don't need 600whp to be competitive. But that's for a later discussion.

 

Do you have any idea why the grafs are so different?

 

They re-performed the testing parameters. Instead of using a system based upon diesel, they changed machines entirely., Different machines mean more accurate parameters, which means a different extrapolation of the datapoints. That's all. Nothing to be concerned with. This is over a 18 year span.

 

Ok.. makes sense.. Thanks..

Since the time attack classes I probably will participate in at some point uses turbo manufacturers flow spec to sort their classes the old graf might make the turbo class legal.. Barely.. The new one shows to much flow so in that case it matters.
And yes.. I know.. a smaller more modern turbo will be faster.. But if I can use this turbo in the class I am looking at as a start I will have more funds for a bigger motor later on.. I just need to get some seat time at this point and get some experience and determen my next move. ..
Also I have hoosier a7 275 35 15 tires and rev the b16 to 10500 with pretty short gearing. I will have a lot less torque than a 2 liter b series so 600hp might hook on the straights at those revs.. I don´t know.. I will test and see.. My guess is that I will miss some low end torque on all the other places at the circuit but the old civic ef is pretty light too.. We´ll see.

 

I'm trying to assist you as one that raced in these series just as it was getting popular.

You're definitively going to need seat time, as your process for what you think you'll need for this class and power levels are WAY off, as is where you think you'll need that power.

As one that's been doing this a number of years, I can even tell you that the world class leaders in FWD class at Sydney WTAC never used more than 450whp in their larger displacement engines. And they were using 275/35/18 or 225 17" tyre (similar to a Direzza II or Yokohama A048)

 

Yeah the moment you start to use your steering wheel on your turbo honda on anything other than fighting torque steer, what you read here in the general forced induction forum is irrelevant.
Turbo size will depend on what tracks you plan on racing AND what tire you are allowed to use and among other regulations like traction controll etc.
If you ever going to commit your car youll realise that 2871 will probably be the bigger turbo youll ever need.

It is tires
then adjustable suspension (everything included like camber kits / sway bars )
then body rigidity. Once you do this step youll have to go back to suspension and re adjust
then brakes (depending on how much laps you plan on racing per race this gets scary expensive).
Then traction controll
then power. Assuming you have a good radiator some way for the engine bay to breathe AND heat wrap everything.

If you allready have a gt35 get a a .63 or even a .48 housing if you find one from is i remember correct SPA. Or swap it with gt3071 max.
And after that get a form of traction controll like hondata. A used racelogic etc. Assuming you have some kind of suspension and body reinforcement allready.
Also with a B16 you should be racing a engine size category race not max hp category race.
Cause a stock K24 with a cheap t3/4 50 trim at 350 whp and some traction controll will be able to shift half as much and be faster from every b16 out there.

 

For the love of god. That some VERY bad reccomendation for a b16. Unless you told them you be running 6 speed sequential ...

 

Thanks for the advice..

Well.. I woudn´t call me a newbee when it comes to cars and engines.. I just don´t have enough seat time to be able to sort everything out. I guess I am a nebee to that point of view though. I might decide to go dragracing or just keep it a streetcar in the end.. I have built this car over a 15 year time period and I have learnt a lot from it and if everything was done at this time a lot of stuff would have been done differently.. I know a lot more and there is a lot more better parts to chose from now days..

All bushings are spherical. Cage is welded to chassie. All hot parts will be coated and/or heat wrap. Half size rad in front bumper in series with a larger one in the rear bumper and a davis craig electric waterpump. 2 michimoto raceline fans in the rear and a slimline noname in front. Thermostatic oilcooler. Öhlins adjustable in bump and rebound with reservoirs suspension. Brakes are 11,75" with wilwood 6 piston calipers. Rear brakes is a wilwood street kit with vented rotors. I think they are 11,75" also. Wheels are 949 11x15" front and 8x15 rear. Engine management is a old DTA from uk. It has traction control COP and flexifuel though. I will later change to a better ecu too. Maybe Infinity, Link, Ecu master, Maxx ecu, or a used motec.. We´ll see. I have my doubts on the front brakes too.. Biggest mistake I did was building the car from the ground up. I should have kept it as a rolling project so motivation would have been kept. Hell.. When I started this project there was no internet ha ha..

 

See thats a very good platform here.
Thats a kind of "you are getting married to" as we say here around or a "child" project car.
Id really like you to make a build thread if you dont have one to see all the goodies.
I think your fronts will be enough. wilwood 6 pots are probably good for everytihng good to 3000lbs.You might need a
brake bias system but my knowledge on these units are none.
What DTA you have? the s60? I will be in the market for a traction controll setup soon.Did you ever use the traction control ?

 

I have had several build threads through the years on several other forums. They get destroyed when the pictures disappears as they have done with photobucket for example.. I also didn´t get along with the 20 year old kids running those forums and gave it up.. I am 40 year old myself and I have a ful time job, a house under renovation and 2 kids under 5. I also had my own business tuning others cars and making custom parts to make some funds for fabricating equipment and parts for my own project. That is why it has taken so long. I actually worked so much during a 10 year period that it litteraly made me sick. So now days I just have a day job and no business and it just have to take the time it takes.. So progress from where it is now is very slow so making another build thread will take time from the workshop I guess but it could be fun also. I liked that the old build threads were in locked members forum that was not open to the public and basicly just for my customers and friends. I´d hate to get everything I worked so hard for get stolen. Right now I am working on trying to learn how to make resin infused carbon fiber parts. I have to make a roof panel since i pulled the stock one with a heavy sunroof off before paint a few years ago. I have not been able to find one to buy finished. Not in US ether. I soo regret doing that. If I have the time money and patience to learn that I will probably make a lot of cool parts. Inner panels and wide front fenders etc. Up til now I have done vacuum bagging and just wet layups.

Well.. I just need to get some seat time very bad. Hopefully i will have the time and energy to have it registered and road legal here this summer so I finally get to enjoy it.. If I could just leave it to a shop here to get the last stuff finished I would but there is nothing for hondas around here and I want it done my way.

I have used DTA engine management in several cars.. The s60, s80 and on my own car it is a older version p8pro. All have traction controll. I have installed sensors on all cars but not been able to test it out in practice, But according to others it seems to work just fine.. As on all systems you have to dial in the boost control first and adjust the final touch with traction control. DBW is a great thing here. You cant expect traction control to work on a a full boost 500whp fwd car in low gears. That will just build up alot of heat. That is just the way it is.

 

Hell, a decently prepped NA K24 would run circles around him at this point with such a turbo.

I agree with the turbo CFM family recommendations. GTX28--R ,GTX3067R, GT3071R, TR3030R, Banshee, and EFR6258s are the best to come to mind for something with that displacement. It depends upon the track you run and the test laps performed. I have 3 turbos for my tracks: A Banshee, A TR3030R, and an Interceptor (GT3588R). I've never had to use the Interceptor in any track, so far, really just the TR3030R and occasionally the Banshee for the smaller tracks, but that's it. No more than about 350whp. All are in .63A/R.

 

I'm in the same boat, brother. Similar age with similar aspects to my life. I just had the seat time in the beginning. Now I have to get back into it a bit more. But can only do it on a limited basis. That's why experience helps. Sell the GT35R, man. Use it to get a reasonably sized turbo.

 

Haha i just realised the sweed ment sweden. Well then you lucky we have everything on racetrack parts and equipment in europe. Im 32 lucky i didnt marry yet but the lady after 6 years is getting you know ... ahem.\
I run a 2 man army insurance consulation business.Im in greece well things are tough but you know a man i defined from his hobbies.
If you ever manage to make bumper ill buy a wide front bumper/fenders for my del sol from you
Did you ever experiment on awd?

 

I doubt I will do any del sol parts ever.. sorry.. Greece... nice.. I have been there a couple of times.. Love the warmth and the Mediterranean sea. I am very curious on Extreme tuners turbos and their exotic materials. I bet they are not cheap though..

I have looked a bit on 4wd stuff. CRV tranny with b16/ITR/GSR gears, a good LSD and a BMW rear diff looks like a plan.. I don´t think the d series wagon center diff will handle any respectable torque levels and I don´t want to have solid 50/50. For dragracing it will probably be fine. The crv center diff is hardly a motorsport center diff and I doubt it will hold much power ether. The best would be some kind of management for a center diff like a skyline gt-r r32-r34 has.. I have not looked into it any more than that though.. 4wd are far far away, if I ever will consider it.. A catback will be very hard to get in there right by the propeller shaft and gear linkage.. I want it on the streets and I am guessing I am to old for a straight pipe hood exit. Or is the crv tanny controlled with wires? Don´t remeber. It will be tight anyway..

That guy I have seen recently with a greenish civic eg and k series turbo 4wd running 7:s got me curious though.. I wounder what he has done regarding propeller shaft and center diff.. I doubt he has a center diff at all and just run 50 50 front to rear..

 

Did you ever used a system to controll traction or just right foot? You have some very good tracks for strong cars in US its nice.



Extreme tuners is what is says extreme pro mod level stuff. The evo has like 500.000 invested on it. I never dared to call them haha.
We have a french dude with a h22 civic here at honda-tech he is in france oviously haha and has the blue EG . He told me the CRV setup handled 700whp. The gears on the crv are H22 based and they are (?) stronger fro B series. I have a custumer 65 years old that worked like 20 years on machinery.After the pictures i saw him he said he can mate the trailing arms with the crv/itr hub but ill have to finish my engine first. It will be a later thought not for the track just to **** off some people on the street haha.

Do you have someone that knows what he is doing with sleeved honda engines in Sweden ? We have a guy here but im looking alternatives.

 

Yeah I have seen the french guys stuff.. I have a hard time take it serous though.. Everybody knows that crv are b series stuff.. Or k.. It is common knowledge that the h series gearbox are fragile.. Hence the h2b stuff.

To get the trailing arms to mate is not a big problem.. You just have to make a good jig and have some fabrication skills mating the crv and the car in questions trailing arm.. Or you can just make or fabricate a lighter tubular trailing arm. The hard part as I see it is the center diff. If it is too hard to get it to work alright it is better to start out with something like a evo with a k series or a skyline GT-R with a BMW straight six or a 2jz.. I have had a r33 gt-r with a rb26 and to me it is the most over rated engine ever.. It is rev happy but total torque less out of boost and as almost all nissan engines it has a piece of **** oil system and the first thing to do is to get a rb30 block and a dry sump.. Realizing that, it is better to start with a better engine.. A e46 m3 turbo engine in a r32 gt-r would be cool.. To bad I am not a very big fan of RHD cars. Dreaming up projects are one of my good sides if I say so my self ha ha. We are spoiled with the honda 4 cyl k and b series though thats for sure. One thing I have learned over the years though is to plan your goal and set the budget from the beginning and see to it that you have the best starting point you can get. Buying a small cheap civic and build everyting to 800 hp and all the suppoting mods with a engine not stock in that platform and then discover you want to go 4wd on a race circuit is just not smart. It is way too time consuming and also expensive and almost nomatter how good he build is it is not worth much even if it gets finished. That is exactly what I did to my self and I have just came to far to quit.. Biggest chance is you end up with a tacked up pile of **** that is not good for anything besides being a crazy *** build.. A dedicated drag car that prioritize 402m in a straight line is pretty much the easiest build

The motorsport scene is big in Sweden especially if you like audis, v8:s or volvos so there is a lot of shops for general engine work and dynos etc and we have great drag strips and alot of race circuits etc. Rally, rally cross, circuit racing and drag racing are the most common I guess.. The Honda scene itself is not very big though. The "newer" 2002 and up to 2017 hondas is just not the same as the 90s cars ether. I hope the new CTR FK8 changes that. The accord here which is the same as a US TSX might be an exemption. The K-series engines are fantastic though. There are shops that can install darton sleeves but everthing motor sport related are twice the price here compared to US so it is cheaper to import already sleeved blocks from US or ship your own there to get it sleeved.. 50% or morre of those who have tried installing sleeves here are having trouble with them sinking. In US the shops have done thousands of honda blocks and it is a higher rate of success getting already sleeved blocks.. I hve been forced to line bore several sleeved US blocks though. I even took my first b16 block packed in a box as luggage and went to Golden Eagle in LA my self to get it sleeved. I had a blast getting to know some people around different shops and bought all my engine parts to great prices..I met Doc Charles working at Autolink motor werks doing the very first k swap that was known back then. Also Kevin that worked there, Kitty and the owner Clay. (Cant believe I remember all their names) I got a private tour from Brian Crower in Crowers facilities. I met Geoff from full race which is a great guy. Also Ben a rely rely good guy at Importparts. I went to Hondata and Password JDM and Dynamic autosports too and a few more etc. Vince and his father Ted who manage Golden Eagle back then helped me out so much I can´t even begin to describe.. At some point I ended up playing basket ball and raced go carts with the Burgenholtz brothers.. I had no Idé who they were back than.. Great memories to have.. That was how my business started. That was back in 2001 I think and I have been over to LA several times since that on holidays mixing business with pleasure.. One of my best investments were attending EFI university's tuning classes.. Man I miss those times traveling around meeting all the fantastic people..

 

No. Not really. The boost controllers that I use are independent of laptop control, and really great for increasing/decreasing spool response for a given turbocharger size. They also have "scramble" options so that I can use higher boost levels at the push of a button for straights to make up for time. So, I can go from .9bar to 1.3bar and back down again in an instant. That's why I stick with the older school controllers like GReddy, Apex'i and Blitz, because they use automotive solenoids that are light years faster than any MAC solenoid, and they have their own independent brains that work flawlessly outside of laptop controlled systems. (At least for the type of racing I do.)

The course variants are so vast that your foot/brain can react faster in some cases than traction control (which reeks havoc on your brakes) and boost-by-gear is just not an option because of the many gear changes made on different tracks. It would take days to test a track out to get the right settings to get a good session in.

The only thing I've used that was based upon the Haltech ECU that I've used is the anti-lag feature on the longer courses. (true anti-lag, not that 2-step **** that people fart around in the parking lot with to create a type of retarded timing launch control). I do have to be careful with that because EGTs really start to skyrocket and can seriously cause wear on the turbocharger.


Ah good times.

 

While true, almost all ECU controlled boost controls (Hondata, Neptune, Aem, etc) can all flip between two target boost settings by some sort of input and also have the ability to kill/lower boost based on some sort of warning or event which can save an engine. But to your point, it is really nice to be able to tinker with the boost via a **** instead of pulling out your laptop. There are pros and cons of both systems IMHO.

I personally use the built-in EFR boost solenoid controlled by the PWM output on a Neptune RTP. The nice part is if you're using a fuel sensor like I am, it will automatically adjust the fuel maps/boost maps depending on what gas you're on (gas/e85). And you can still hit a button to get "high boost" anytime just like the greddy/apex units.

 

I like that. You could acheive the same with a momentary push button with an ecu based system but obviously you don't have immediate control of where the boost goes unless you predetermine it.

 

When the tuning is solid, you don't really worry about the boost pressure "killing" the engine. There are a ton of other issues that could do the same thing that just take a priority over simple boost control. This is why when we tune, we use the very fuel that will be used on the circuit, and tune the multiple target boost pressures accordingly. Many now may look at this as "old school", but its still the primary way that circuit racers run their cars.

The only way I could envision using a laptop-boost controlled system on the circuit, is a system in which GPS telemetry data on the track layout is somehow integrated into the ECU system's ignition timing /fuel trim data so that (after track-simulation testing on the dyno simultaneously) the ECU has a better idea as to where boost pressure would be optimal on portions of the track. Since we aren't Formula 1 drivers here, I believe we must wait until the tech "trickles down" like it has for the last 30 years.



Which is where "scramble" is needed. In many instances, you can't always predict when you're going to use it. This is why I don't bother with the ECU based Boost control. Full Throttle Shifting, sure, but not boost control