Balor_Gr

So this was an old "want" that never came true. I wanted a long time the 176-T since it a little bit easier than GSCT1s.
After the drama with pro1 and chipped ferrea retainers.
I checked about Kelfrod 176-T compatibility with ferrea 10070 80lbs springs i had.
I like to save my thoughs/calculations on image (you can see below but its kinda rought for the eye)

I asked kiel from kelford cams some time ago what valve spring the would sugest for 9500 rpm 25-30 psi boost on a 50-60 lbs turbo.
They reccomended their valve springs or BC (they are made by PAC) at 1mm preload / install height.
Well we also know that they work with supertech 85lbs.

So i made some calculations base on the following:

Kelford valve springs: at 34mm install height: 85lbs. Rate / mm: UNKNOWN
Ferrea 10070 valve springs: at 33mm install height: 80lbs. Rate / mm: 11lbs, max lift 14mm
BC PAC valve springs: at 34mm install height: 80lbs. Rate / mm: UNKNOWN
SUPERTECH valve springs: at 33.5mm install height: 85lbs. Rate / mm: 12.5 lbs, max lift 15mm

>>>Ferrea rate per mm is 11lbs. 11lbs/mmAdding 0.5mm install height/preload on the ferrea spring makes it have 85-86lbs at seat,
but also takes 0.5mm out of the max net lift making it from 14mm now 13.5mm and 17.5mm to coil bind.
Kelfords 176T according to their site have max lift of 11.25mm.
13.5 max net lift for ferrea minus 11.25mm from the kelfords lift gives 2,25mm max lift remaining.

Food for thought:
-At max cam lift +0,5mm install height Ferreas have 209lbs pressure
-At max cam lift SUPERTECHS have 225lbs pressure.

Questions:
-How close spring to max lift is dangerous.Max lift remaining for the supertechs is still 15mm -11.25mm = 3,75mm vs 2,25mm for the ferreas with 0.5mm extra preload.
-Would you ran this springs with this cams? In the specs look at least the same pressure at seat at the same preload with Kelford valve springs.

AZ_CIVIC

iTrader: (1)

I heard Kelford cams suck but that is just what I've heard.

Balor_Gr

The few people that used them that i managed to find on line were happy with em. But it could be bad memory.
Anyway we might find aomeone that used them around.

Balor_Gr

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I've used several sets of Kelford 176-Ts in some applications. Wonderful camshafts if you can't get GSC T1s. Really nice stuff, but we had to go through the same process of break-in and dialing in as we did with the GSC T1s. Both of these camshafts use an 85lbs spring seat. (All you had to do was ask, Balor_Gr, I had your back). But I don't recommend 80lbs springs with Kelfords. Use the 85lbs -91lbs seat pressure (just like the GSC T1s ) when getting these camshafts in.

If using a cam gear other than OEM, you'll want to get the longer camshaft bolts and washer to make up for the amount of threads you'd lose that's threaded inside the camshaft (which could cause the camshaft to break). GSC Power-Division still carries these bolts, but I can see if I have a spare set and give you the length and thread pitch.

The Kelfords use a billet core like the 7-Series GSCs that are sold out for the remainder of the year.

Best rule to follow: If Kelford has matching valvetrain to work with their camshafts, use their valvetrain with their camshafts.

Balor_Gr

EDIT: ADDING SHIMS OR PRELOAD REDUCES INSTALL HEIGHT MM.
My first post was godawfull complicated but this is the sum of it:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kelford valve springs: at 34mm install height: 85lbs. Rate / mm: UNKNOWN -> Kelford says install our kit at 34mm for 85lbs seat pressure.
Ferrea 10070 valve springs: at 33mm install height: 80lbs. Rate / mm: 11lbs, max lift 14mm Since ferrea 80lbs springs are 80lbs at 1mm lower install height (i say it preload) im very sure ferreas (that are by the way 11lbs/mm) are at least 91lbs at 34mm AKA same height with the kelford cams. EDIT : WRONG*
BC PAC valve springs: at 34mm install height: 80lbs. Rate / mm: UNKNOWN
SUPERTECH valve springs: at 33.5mm install height: 85lbs. Rate / mm: 12.5 lbs, max lift 15mm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since all 80-85 lbs sprins have rate 11-12.5 lbs per mm id say Kelford springs are below 80lbs with 1mm preload taken out/ install heaight 33mm.
Im very sure at seat and same install height 80lbs Ferreas are harder from both the kelfords and the BC springs they reccomend.EDIT : WRONG*

By the way max net lift i pretty much useless cause all the ferrea springs have 13 to 14mm. Even the 100lbs springs that can be used with SUPER big cams. So its irrelevant id say.

*EDIT: ADDING SHIMS FOR PRELOAD REDUCES INSTALL HEIGHT MM.

Balor_Gr

*EDIT: ADDING SHIMS FOR PRELOAD REDUCES INSTALL HEIGHT MM.
To make it simpler ill write down everything at 34mm:
Kelfords 85lbs
Ferrea 91lbs
BC pac 80lbs
Supertech 92lbs

I know its the best by far, takes all the calculations out but i had a good deal on the full ferrea KT4001(if i remember correct) kit.
For so long i totaly forgot that springs compress expodentially... That was the reason of install height playing a big role
A kid can compress a sping a couple of mm but to fully compress the same spring you need a bodybuilder. Every mm the spring becomes tougher.
Thats why seat pressure, as a comparisson factor, is irrelevant at different install heights, a thing that i tottally miseed all these years. Ithought it was just a number...

ls joker

on paper they suck. id run my gsc n1s cams over the 176t cams.


176t
11.25mm/11mm, 284/274

gsc n1
11.6mm/11mm, 280/276

Balor_Gr

The duration is shorter on N1s tho. They look like a NA focused cam.
246/240@1mm Duration VS 254/46 @1mm

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

That's because they ARE an NA camshaft.

bigG

iTrader: (6)

How are you getting 91lbs on those springs at 34mm? Its more like 65lbs @34mm. The bases add 1.4mm to install height. So you will be about 85lbs with no shimming anyway.

Balor_Gr

I thought install height starts at the place the spring actually sits not the cylinder surface. You have sthe same valve springs/seats retainers/ locks with me if i remember correct right? Did you ever measured this without valve spring seats? This measurement in the picture is done to see fluctuation on the head seat height :


Ferrea catalogue gives the s10070 valve spring 80lbs at seat at 33mm. So i guess the default install height with the s10070 valve spring seat retainer combo is around 33mm for this spring.
If you see the other valve springs have different reteiners AND valve seat product code. So maybe the others seat higher(34mm) at default? I can only speculate.

Balor_Gr

Oh i found a very good video

Balor_Gr

Ok i had a moment of clarity. Install height is getting reduced with added spacers/shims. Very wrong onomatology here haha. Quite deceiving term if you ask me.
bigG is correct and im dumb AF, compression height length is reduced with preload for obvious reasons(the same way lowering a car suspension works...)

I edited all above and ill do new calculations.

Balor_Gr

Ok new calculations i hope these are correct.
Kelford valve springs: at 34mm install height: 85lbs. Rate / mm: UNKNOWN id guess at least 12 lbs per mm at 33mm at least 95lbs at 32mm 105lbs
BC PAC valve springs: at 34mm install height: 80lbs. Rate / mm: UNKNOWN id say they are very very close or the same with s10104 PAC-FERREA spring..anyway at 33mm around 92-93 lbs at 32mm 105lbs
Ferrea 10070 valve springs: at 33mm install height: 80lbs. Rate / mm: 11lbs, so at 32mm 91 lbs
SUPERTECH valve springs: at 33.5mm install height: 85lbs. Rate / mm: 12.5 lbs, max lift 15mm so around 92lbs at 33mm, at 32mm around 105lbs

bigG

iTrader: (6)

Stick with ferrea skunk2 or BC. They are all pac springs. You need to measure install height. But with the correct seats and a .030 shim you should be about 92-95 lbs on the 10070. You would be surprised how off install heights are from head to head.

Balor_Gr

Yeah im sure castings are all over the place and ill tell the machinist to get an oem valve with an oem reteiner to machine everything for 0.005" max variance.
I allready have s10070 i couldnt find the ferrea-pac springs on a good price as a set, i also found a good offer on the whole KT4001 kit if its called that way and i got it.
I might get 8 intake ferrea-pac springs and matching spring seats. Reteiners at least are the same.

I also found some interesting data online for better understanding.

bigG

iTrader: (6)

They are all made by pac from what i understand. You need to measure install height with all of your valvetrain, not oem.

Balor_Gr

No im talking about using one oem valve / reteiner to make sure all the oem springs seats on the headare the same height or machine them to be the closest possible.

bigG

iTrader: (6)

thats not how it works but good luck

diatibe24

Hey, what was the length and thread pitch? Im doing Kelfords and Golden Eagle cam gears but only have OEM bolts

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I didn't memorize that. I'll need to see if I have another set. I do remember it was odd enough to just get it from GSC. they sell them.

diatibe24

Excellant, just bought a set. Now one less thing to worry about lol Thanks!