BNiceB16

Alright guys I'm a noob so be gentle. I have a first gen b16 with skunk 2 stage 2 cams I was thinking about putting a 75 shot on it. but people tell me the duration is to high on the stage 2's and it would cause detonation. any advice will be welcome.

00Red_SiR

I wouldn't worry about the cams and duration, you'll be fine. What you have to be concerned about is to make sure the engine is in reasonably good shape to begin with, is decently tuned and has a reliable fuel system. If all those things are in order, spray away, just don't be stupid with it like spraying every time you pull out of the driveway. Nitrous isn't magic and it's not what most people try to scare others into believing. It's just one more way to allow your engine to burn more fuel which in turn will make more power.

Try visiting some of the nitrous manufacturers websites and reading their Q&A sites, it will give you a better understanding of what it's all about.

BNiceB16

the motor is fine I just want to avoid detonation at all cost cuz I understand that is what causes major problems

Used2beAb16

like he said make sure your fuel system is in tip top shape, even replace the filter, etc.

To avoid detonation its nice to retard the timing a couple degree while spraying. Also make sure you use the highest octane avail.

wolve

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BNiceB16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">people tell me the duration is to high on the stage 2's and it would cause detonation</TD></TR></TABLE>

more duration bleeds off compression wich causes it to detonate less then with short duration cams. if you wanna be totally sure spray 50 shot (so configurated that you run a little rich on the spray, contact your manufactor of choice on how).

safest and most failsafe is to go wet! you're gonna need a window switch too, this will alow you to spray between certain rpms only. this saves your engine when you might spin and hit rev-limiter on the spray. cus when you hit rev-limiter with nitrous flowing you're doomed!!! also prevents from spraying at too low rpms and also blowing up your engine.

so what you 'need' (read: i suggest)is :

a basic single fogger wet kit (direct port is overkill for you) with full-throttle switch
a pressure activated bottle heater (to spray at same pressure al the time)
a rpm activated window switch (so can't spray outside the safe range)
an extra switch if not included in kit(full throttle activation only emptys bottles fast)
proper install (someone with REAL knowledge)
a tune-up (plugs, wires, filter, etc. etc.)
retard your timing a few degrees or get something to retard your timing on the spray
proper octane (ask manufacturer for advice, can't hurt)
ability to control yourself, it's a powerfull adiction!!!!

all this and you have foolproof setup (100% failsafe is never possible, not even with stock engine)

if i forgot something, please chime in

Used2beAb16

yeah u pretty much hit the nail on the head really. He cant even really go direct port unless u wanna do like an 80 shot or more.

I read that there is a zex (i think) direct pot setup that is now capable of smaller shots. (cant remember how small and too lazy to look it up)

Direct port is probably the safest, but u might end up having to run a big shot of n20 especially if your fuel pressure is high.

just do the wet kit and when you spray first i would do it on a dyno or get a wideband. If you use the highest octane avail. and dont lean it out, and always check your plugs u should be relatively safe.

Also, like wolve said those cams will bleed off juice, and you will be a little less effiecient with the juice then with smaller cams, (but still perfectly useable) You shouldnt have much det. problems.

Another thing (yeah money is everything right) but n20 controllers are sweet for bigger shots. You can spray gradually instead of pounding the motor with 100 or 120 hp or more of juice all at once. If anything this is why n20 is more detrimental to the motor because unlike a turbo that spools, this **** is instant, and its very cold, but gets very hot. People tend to burn exhaust valves so if you ever have the head off its a good idea to get some good valves atleast on the exhaust side for precaution. (shouldnt be a big deal on a low comp motor with a smaler shot)

BNiceB16

hell yea great feedback

wolve

good point about the exhaust valves, did'nt give that enough thought. i'm asking this because i'm parting together a engine for a 200shot with 200whp n/a power. yeah i know it's gonna be hard. but with a nitrous dedicated fuel system it should be possible. i need some flat faced valves to bump c/r (i'm gonna run flat top 9.0 je's with a reworked combustion chamber and thin hg to get it to 11;1). do you know a manufacturer who makes flat faced valves who can withstand the heat (stainless steel perhaps?)?


Modified by wolve at 6:31 AM 6/15/2005

Used2beAb16

i cannot recommend valves because i dont have enough personal experience with them but if you are going to be running a shot like that i would def invest in some good exhaust valves. Try and find out what some of the people here runnig big shots are using, i think some used stock but ive seen alotta burnt up valves too.

I dont think a 200 shot would be a big deal if u got the fuel system for it, i would personally do a progressive controller for a couple reasons. Like i was saying earlier you set them up so that it kinda of eases the juice on a little bit. (some controls u can set how fast or slow u want the juice to be fully open) Also it outta help with traction because a 200 shot instantly will break slicks loose.

Again not sure on the valves but there are some people here that are or were running big shots see what they did and see how it worked out as burning valves, etc. Esp with the compression i would say they are cheap insurance.

Used2beAb16

Also to bniceb16 like said before if it were me and i was about to start using spray, i would do it first where there is a wideband o2 sensor to be sure that your a/f ratio is ok because its one thing to hit a couple lean spots n/a and its a whole nother story if your spraying and lean out. you might have to pay for a couple baselines of dyno time but its also cheap reassurance when your motor is at risk.

00Red_SiR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Used2beAb16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> You can spray gradually instead of pounding the motor with 100 or 120 hp or more of juice all at once. If anything this is why n20 is more detrimental to the motor because unlike a turbo that spools, this **** is instant, and its very cold, but gets very hot. People tend to burn exhaust valves so if you ever have the head off its a good idea to get some good valves atleast on the exhaust side for precaution. (shouldnt be a big deal on a low comp motor with a smaler shot)</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't mean to knit pick since I think in general your advice has been pretty good but I do have to disagree with the statement above for a couple reasons:

1) First of all lets all remember that he's only planing on running a 75 shot, not 100+. A single fogger, wet kit is adequate and safe to run at the power level he wants. I should know as I run the same thing on my car without problems.

2) Nitrous doesn't hit immediately like everyone thinks unless you are using a purge before launch. The length of the nitrous line can actually be used to "soften" the initial hit of nitrous when activated. In general, the longer the line, the softer the initial hit. To me at a 75hp shot (without purging first) it comes in similar to how a turbo feels when it starts to spool up so traction really isn't that much of an issue unless you have crappy tires or the road surface is slick. Higher nitrous settings may be different and traction more of an issue.

3) I cannot emphasize enough that nitrous is NOT harder on an engine than FI. FI is "on" the entire time an engine is on and various loads are constantly being placed on the engine. That doesn't mean FI is hard on an engine, since I believe it isn't if it's setup and tuned properly and used with some common sense. Nitrous is NOT on 99% of the time and when it is, it only puts the same amount of stress on an engine as an engine going to full boost would experience.

4) It is incorrect that combustion temperatures significantly rise when using nitrous or that the cold nature of the gas somehow has a negative effect on the engine in any way. When a nitrous or FI car is properly tuned, their combustion temperatures will not increase significantly unless the car is running lean. This is how valves get burnt and other things. A properly tuned system will not run lean so it won't burn or damage anything.

Used2beAb16

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 00Red_SiR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I don't mean to knit pick since I think in general your advice has been pretty good but I do have to disagree with the statement above for a couple reasons:

1) First of all lets all remember that he's only planing on running a 75 shot, not 100+. A single fogger, wet kit is adequate and safe to run at the power level he wants. I should know as I run the same thing on my car without problems.

2) Nitrous doesn't hit immediately like everyone thinks unless you are using a purge before launch. The length of the nitrous line can actually be used to "soften" the initial hit of nitrous when activated. In general, the longer the line, the softer the initial hit. To me at a 75hp shot (without purging first) it comes in similar to how a turbo feels when it starts to spool up so traction really isn't that much of an issue unless you have crappy tires or the road surface is slick. Higher nitrous settings may be different and traction more of an issue.

3) I cannot emphasize enough that nitrous is NOT harder on an engine than FI. FI is "on" the entire time an engine is on and various loads are constantly being placed on the engine. That doesn't mean FI is hard on an engine, since I believe it isn't if it's setup and tuned properly and used with some common sense. Nitrous is NOT on 99% of the time and when it is, it only puts the same amount of stress on an engine as an engine going to full boost would experience.

4) It is incorrect that combustion temperatures significantly rise when using nitrous or that the cold nature of the gas somehow has a negative effect on the engine in any way. When a nitrous or FI car is properly tuned, their combustion temperatures will not increase significantly unless the car is running lean. This is how valves get burnt and other things. A properly tuned system will not run lean so it won't burn or damage anything. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree with everything you say. My next step is D.P. n20. due to compression restraints.

If you read i didnt suggest a direct port for him if he was keeping the shot small, but u gotta think. Everyone keeps the shot small at first. Why not be ready? I do believe i said that he would be fine with a wet kit because they dont even make direct ports that small.


Also, the direct port kits that are commonly used for the big shots i was discussing have higher flowing valves and can deliver a bigger shot immediately.

I did not say that nitrous was more detrimental than forms of F.I. I was saying that you can ease the effect of a large shot, this was more inline with wolves setup, not the original posters. Listen to average to larger size turbos come into boost, vs. the nitrous being activated. Its still a shock to the combustion environemt.

About the valves, i may have been misleading the way i said it but i really meant that in the case that a motor goes from a larger shot, a portion of the incidents resulted in burnt ex. valves.

00Red_SiR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Used2beAb16 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Also, the direct port kits that are commonly used for the big shots i was discussing have higher flowing valves and can deliver a bigger shot immediately.
</TD></TR></TABLE>


My nitrous kit on my car is actually an NX single fogger wet kit for an LS1 Camaro/Firebird good for 150hp shot on that engine. All the valves and solenoids are significantly larger than a standard nitrous kit is for a 4 cyl Honda/Acura. The way it "hits" is no different than the old dry ZEX kit for Hondas I use to run because it's the jets that regulate everything, not the size of the valves etc.

tegturbo

i have a zex dry kit it work good and i had no probles with at all, my motor [b18a] had 200k on it still runs good.

Used2beAb16

your right its the size of the shot that is regulated by the jets, and since they are always open fully, they will always be shooting a 75 shot in your case, be it when its first activated or at the end of the pass, theres not in between spool up time.

Also i was talking about direct ports nota single fogger. Direct ports can flow more nitrous because your putting down 75 through a single fogger, but some hondas are running 50 hp out of each of the 4 foggers (u know what i mean.) Your sending less than 20 hp to each cyl. at once (except for any discrepence with IM distribution.) The direct port kits are flowing alot more, at atleast the same or a faster pace.

If the valves didnt have anything to do the restriction of the flow, why would the standard 4 cyl kits have smaller valves than the big direct port kits? At a point it does become a restriction, maybe not in 70 shot, but it does on the big ones.

basically, we are knit picking 2 totally different setups. For the orignal poster, you do not need a progressive controller, but i dont see why wolve couldnt use one.
The man is trying to build a 10 sec nitrous only daily driver, i think that the progressive controller is going to be a nice addition to the setup. Or you could just run a 2 stage setup.

Phase Change Racing

Red_SIR I don't know where you came from but your nitrous information thus far has been right on. To add to what Red_SIR was saying about softening the hit there are also a few other things that can be done to make it come in softer. Running a digital delay on just the nitrous solenoid helps a ton to time the events of nitrous and fuel hitting the plenum at the same time (because they never do) and also can be used as a poor mans traction control device by letting the system spray additional fuel for a few hundreths of a second so the tune goes rich right off the bat. On a well tuned system this works really well, on a "manufacturer reccommended tune" it is pretty much bog city. Biasing the line lenths between the solenoids and nozzles (making the fuel lines roughly 50% shorter) has a very similar effect. The changes are dramatic on a narrowband (yes I know they suck) A/F gauge and should also be quite visible on a wideband with the sample rate cranked.

As far as the low HP direct port systems go, I stock jets for a decent 60HP tune for my systems but I have yet to use them heh heh. A .012" fuel jet is awfully small. Usually everyone opts for the 75 or 90 tune. There just isn't much point in taking a 200HP or 400HP capable system and jetting down to 60HP imo.

Awsome thread guys.

Used2beAb16

your exactly right, all im trying to say is that the big systems capable of 200 plus hp have bigger valves and at some point there is a constriction inf nitrous flow with the smaller kits.

wolve

a 2 stage setup would at minimum. imagine me spray 200 in second gear not many slicks can handle that. and i believe to keep traction with this amount of nitrous is gonna need more then the usual aids/tricks to keep traction, i think the progressive controller is gonna be a must

Used2beAb16

Red_Sir if you dont mind me asking how does the car run with the 75 shot single fogger? Do you have any on and off nitrous 1/4 ets?

I am asking because i am planning on doing an 80-90 direct port at some point in time. I going direct port because i like having total control of the distribution basically, an my manifold is already equipped w/ nitrous bosses so why not.

Already purchased and installed wideband so once i start playing with jets i wont need to be on the dyno all the time.

what kind of a:f do you guys like running the nitrous at (wheres the most power)
I am setup for datalogging so dialing it in wont be bad after i get the jets down.

Phase Change: what ratio would you reccomend for a nitrous: fuel line length? Are you saying that your run 50 percent shorter fuel lines, or that doing that is basically replicating a manufacturer jetting?

Used2beAb16

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wolve &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">a 2 stage setup would at minimum. imagine me spray 200 in second gear not many slicks can handle that. and i believe to keep traction with this amount of nitrous is gonna need more then the usual aids/tricks to keep traction, i think the progressive controller is gonna be a must </TD></TR></TABLE>

You are obviously building a killer nitrous setup, and in your case, 2 stages and the controller are going to be neccesary in achieving your goal. I believe there was alot of confusion in this thread. The reccommendation of a nitrous controller was for you, not for the original poster. Good luck with that setup when u get it running i wanna see some posts about it.

RA166E

Great thread guys!

As far as the A/F ratios goes. I'm learning that when running nitrous its a broad margin.

Dean of Phase Change Racing will usually have you set W/B A/F ratios where your engine runs it best for HP and durability. Then he flows the nitrous system to get a nitrous to fuel ratio. This will fall somewhere between 5:1 to 6:1 depending on fuel, bore size etc.

My D16 street car runs a 5:1 N/F ratio. With a pump fuel 10.8 to 11.0 A/F ratio when on the bottle.
I'm running a 50% shorter fuel delivery line.
My setup is a single 90* soft plume nozzle with a 70shot jetting.

wolve

i took my first step in a long/slow process. (long/slow because i'm finishing college next year, so money is a problem now, after college not, i will have a 1000 euro per month on my hands for my car, at minimum )

i timed my quarter mile fully stock d15b7 in eg coupe fully stock

just for comparison before during and after my build up.

i was not dissapointed i must say

raceACCORDingly

advance the exhaust side.

higher duration sometimes puddles nitrous and the nitrous goes to waste so you dont get the full shot. you can help with the puddling by advancing the exhaust side earlier in the cycle.

Phase Change Racing

The acutal length of the line is somewhat irrilevant, the ratio between the nitrous and fuel lines is what is key. Please note this is not the gossepel of nitrous tuning, just one of the many **** retentive little things I like to do to my systems. Here is what I like to do and why:

Hard Lines: always and everywhere ya can. They look better, they support solenoids without the need for solenoid brackets, and their inner diameter stay constant under pressure.

Line Bias: nitrous line (from solenoid to nozzle) should be roughly double the length of the fuel line. I have not put enough effort into researching this to find out exactly what lengths at what pressures work ideally but from what I have seen a 50% bias gets ya in the ballpark. You will notice that the system will hit quicker and will not have any of the bucking/sputtering crap going on that plagues a lot of single nozzle users.

raceACCORDingly

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Phase Change Racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Line Bias: nitrous line (from solenoid to nozzle) should be roughly double the length of the fuel line. I have not put enough effort into researching this to find out exactly what lengths at what pressures work ideally but from what I have seen a 50% bias gets ya in the ballpark. You will notice that the system will hit quicker and will not have any of the bucking/sputtering crap going on that plagues a lot of single nozzle users.</TD></TR></TABLE>

awesome info. w/ my old setup i would often think about this but never really did any research on it.