Synapse

I’d like to understand how well people are going to pick up on some new Wastegating concepts. Can you guys give me some feedback on how well you understand these new ideas.

1) Spring Pre-Load Adjustment - Allows you to control when the wastegate will open. It is not intended to be used to increase boost pressure, however, excessive spring pre-load can increase boost pressure. Maximum adjustment of the pre-load spring does not limit the overall travel of the valve. You control when the WG valve opens in order to maximize the performance of your individual turbo/system. Even though different pre-load adjustments can produce the same target boost pressure, you can vary the initial opening of the WG valve to influence back-pressure and pre-turbine EGTs.

2) Interchangeable Spring Rates – Where pre-load determines when your WG valve will open, Spring Rate will determine the WG’s rising rate ratio. This is basically your amount of valve lift per pound of boost. This will also determine the maximum valve lift for a given boost pressure. This cannot be done with a diaphragm wastegate.

3) There will be 2 valve seats of different flow diameters included with each frame wastegate to allow you to match flow to your target HP or displacement.

On-Board Boost Control Concepts
1) Boost signal to Port C & D produces the lowest boost pressure
2) Boost signal to Port A, C & D produces higher boost than #2
3) Boost signal to Port C produces higher boost than #3
4) Boost signal to Port C & A produces higher boost than #4
5) Boost signal to Port D produces higher boost than #5
6) Boost signal to Port D & A produces the highest boost pressure

93supercoupe

if some one can explain this on easier level, that would be great, thanks

mrx

i don't understand the boost control concepts until now... i can gues but the description is not 100% clear... maybe you can explain this for dummys.

otherwise the concept is not that bad... very interesting... what will be the price?

i would be interested in it in general...

drumking15

wow thats pretty clever...took me a minute to figure out the concepts youve got going but i really like it

Synapse

Let's start with spring Pre-Load.

It is the amount of PSI (force) that is pushing down on the WG's valve. This is the amount of force that needs to be overcome for the valve to initially open and start dumping exhaust gas. For example ,by adjusting the screw (righty tighty-more psi on the valve-opens at higher boost pressure, lefty loosie-less psi opens at lower boost pressure) you can tell the WG to START opening at 7 psi, instead of say 5 psi, when your max boost is 10 psi.

Most WGs available today do not even have this adjustment available. And if they do, they are pushing down on the main spring on the WG, and if you adjust it too much, you limit the valve lift and you get creep. Synchronic will have an entirely different spring for pre-load than the main spring and even with the adjustment screw turned all the way down, you will still have maximum valve lift available out of the WG.

nickromeo

also i think that this will help when using a small spring rate, with an mbc to increase boost, that the spring wont just be pushed open by high pressure exhaust overcoming the ofrce of the small rated spring but actually running much higher boost cause of an mbc.

does that make sense?

95GSRTT

I think the spring pre-load is ingenius. I really think thats the biggest thing that can be worked on right now with that particular part. Good ideas. Too bad most of your stuff is too baller for me

Synapse

Pricing will be very competitive to what you find on the market today, the bonus to you will be the technology, and elimination of the diaphragm.

Boost Control-

On WGs that are available today, you have a bottom port you put boost pressure signal to, and a top port used for your boost controller. On the Synchronic WG, the Port C is the same as the bottom port. Port A is the same as the top port. On a legacy WG you have a diaphragm that will stretch more as temperature changes and will flex under pressure before moving the valve. Synchronic WG eliminates the diaphragm.

On a standard WG, you have one boost setting unless you get a boost controller. On Synchronic, you have 7 increasing boost settings depending on the combination of ports you put boost signal to. So, on a legacy WG you get a boost signal from the compressor, or an intercooler pipe and it goes to the bottom port. On Synchronic WG, you can do the same and connect it to Port C or D, but you'll get different boost pressures (C is lower boost than D). Or you can T off the boost signal and apply it to C&D and get an even lower boost pressure.

Basically, you can safely step up the boost pressure at the actuator level. No boost controllers to buy if you don't want to. But with a boost controller, you can fine tune the response of the Synchronic WG even better than with a conventional WG.

RTW DC2R

I understand it but dont know enough about WGs to offer much criticism or opinion.

Synapse

With an MBC, you don't have the option of 3 psi and then running 25 psi on the same spring. It is exactly what you say Nick. So, if you ever want to run 25 psi properly you have to run a high rate/pre-load spring. So this is where the Synchronic Actuator technology comes in.

You run a high spring rate/pre-load to run high boost, right. But you don't change your diaphragm to accomodate the new spring do you? So now your diaphragm has to deflect even more to overcome that high rate spring, basically lagging in response before it opens the valve. And if the diaphragm has a leak, or tear the valve won't open at all. Also, excessive pre-load and spring rate on a legacy WG puts excessive load on all the components of the WG, like the diaphragm, side loading on the valve stem, valve guide and spring seat.

With Synchronic WG, you are working at the actuator level, to change the amount of force going against the spring pneumatically. So you can run a light spring rate, if you need that valve lift ratio, adjust pre-load, and still be able to run a 3-30 psi combo if you wanted to. Since there is no diaphragm, if a seal fails, it will only leak, but will still open the WG. There is also the ability to use the Synchronic WG in a fail-safe configuration that will allow for a failover actuation port should a seal fail.




Modified by Synapse at 11:24 PM 8/29/2006

mrx

great technology... when will it be available?
if it also fits to a standard tial 38mm flange i'am very very interested in such a WG...

k24em2

Looks good, the only thing I would suggest is having threaded fittings for those that don't want to use push on vacuum lines.

Mase

cool concept, however a few things u may or may not have thought about,

it appears the wastegate is a bit taller than say tials?

if this is the case, you will have a tough time fitting these on many log manifolds now days that have the wastegate straight up, unless you get an elbow, which is usually a hassle.

no real big deal but something to think about

the other main concern, would be having to keep changing vac line ports. if you've ever gotten really close to a wastegate or manifold during a tuning session, you know that playing around w/ vac lines isnt fun. also on some setups, the wastegate might not be very accessible.

many customers dont ever want to have to change stuff, they like pressing cool buttons on EBCs or better yet, not have to at all. but regardless, im glad to see a company trying new things out..just point out some aesthetics of what i saw, not so much design in depth

EJ1 wilcox

I love it

Didn't the old Audi external wastegates have a similar design where you could increase the boost pressure by adjusting a bolt on top?

I love the technology though. I spent so much time fiddling with my Tial and various MBC configurations... I would have loved to have something like this.

Seriously

Synapse

The 39mm is a direct replacement for the Deltagate/Tial38/TurboSmart38 flange

The 50mm is a direct replacement for the Tial44, however, the discharge flange on the 50mm is larger than Tial's for true matched flow with the inlet diameter so the discharge flange is the same as the inlet flange. Less hassles with different vband clamps, etc. The discharge does not line up with Tial's 44mm discharge, it is slightly higher, in order to get an improved discharge angle of attack away from the valve. The effect is similar to making the exhaust turn 2 x 45 deg, instead of 1 x 90 deg, this is much better for flow.

There is absolutely no metal-to-metal valve guides in these WGs like you find with every legacy WG. In fact, there is no valve guide. Just a seal with a melting temp higher than stainless steel. The actuator piston and valve all float, with 3 supporting axes that eliminate the effects of side loading on the valve.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
it appears the wastegate is a bit taller than say tials?

if this is the case, you will have a tough time fitting these on many log manifolds now days that have the wastegate straight up, unless you get an elbow, which is usually a hassle.

no real big deal but something to think about

the other main concern, would be having to keep changing vac line ports. if you've ever gotten really close to a wastegate or manifold during a tuning session, you know that playing around w/ vac lines isnt fun. also on some setups, the wastegate might not be very accessible.

many customers dont ever want to have to change stuff, they like pressing cool buttons on EBCs or better yet, not have to at all. but regardless, im glad to see a company trying new things out..just point out some aesthetics of what i saw, not so much design in depth</TD></TR></TABLE>

These WG's are slightly taller than Tial, however, the actuators are much smaller in diameter than Tial, on the order of like 15-20 mm smaller. Don't believe the marketing BS about optimum actuator diameter to valve size ratios, this only applies to diaphragms. A mini actuator is also being designed for the really tight installations. It will be modular and interchangeable with the 39 and 50 housings and valves.

You can always use the Syn WG like any conventional gate, you just have more options for the money you spend. And, with simple solenoids, or 3-way valves that you can control with EMS/Motec/Chrome you can tune for 3 boost settings controlled by the ECU or a simple 3 setting controller, for high-mid-low.

Ex Member

Is this a patented idea ?

SovXietday

I'm pretty sure I understand it... sounds interesting!

Synapse

Utility 6,863,260 fundamental redesign of the pneumatic/hydraulic actuator

Other applications so far have been for an FPR and a BOV based on this geometry is pending https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=3.

For the kit mfr this WG has the unique ability to open under a specific pressure range under vacuum without any electronic controls so that your cat light off times are the same as OEM for those that seek CARB. There is an OEM WG canister replacement model in development.

V-SPEC 1

subscribed. Let us know when will be available and the price as well, thanks.

Synapse

I don't know if it is appropriate to quote prices based on forum rules.

But, whatever you are paying for 38mm and 44mm WGs right now, you can expect the same of Synchronic WG, except you'll get technology as the bonus, and all the little things required for installation.

Anyone have any concerns or questions about materials used? Since all other WG mfr out there seem to market heavy on that and seem to think that you throw better material at something that it must be the best?

Does everyone understand what rising rate ratios are all about, when it comes to springs and WGs?

RTW DC2R

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Synapse &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't know if it is appropriate to quote prices based on forum rules.

But, whatever you are paying for 38mm and 44mm WGs right now, you can expect the same of Synchronic WG, except you'll get technology as the bonus, and all the little things required for installation.

Anyone have any concerns or questions about materials used? Since all other WG mfr out there seem to market heavy on that and seem to think that you throw better material at something that it must be the best?

Does everyone understand what rising rate ratios are all about, when it comes to springs and WGs?</TD></TR></TABLE>

what options are there are far as materials go? from what Ive seen most seem to be made out of similar materials, right?

rising rate ratios just has to do with how fast or slow the gate opens right?

Synapse

Here's some pics of what these Wastegates actually look like. I don't have time to post any data until after SEMA. 50mm isn't that much taller than the 40mm. The valve on the 50 is out to show just how big that thing is.

If you're going to be at SEMA come by booth #24619 Main Hall

MidShipCivic

Its about time synapse I was waiting for this!

93supercoupe

hell yeah

Synapse

SillySOHC asked a great question, so I'll just cut and paste.

silly sohc (8:30 AM 10/24/2006): I saw your post on the wg designs you are after, pretty clever. What base material have you thought of? After doing some research myself into items like this I really like what turbosmart uses.. Stainless 253 MA. I've found first hand tial items fluctuate in expansion rates differently in the valve compared to the housing.
Synapse (4:02 PM 10/24/2006): I can't disclose fully, but even 253 MA is a high Nickel ferritic/austenitic grade SUS. I've spec'd out a very specific grade of a lower Nickel Martensitic SUS (it is magnetic). You really only need Nickel if you need strength because it is a stressed member. My expansion rate on all SUS parts are 1/10 that of any ferritic grade. There is also absolutely no metal to metal contact with moving parts anywhere in the WG. Tial uses different grade Stainless between the valve and valve guide to reduce galling. But there is still a majority of metal to metal contact there. Since the expansion coefficients are different, I think that people are getting creep because at high momentary temps, your getting valve bind due to expansion. Thanks for asking, those are great insights you have.