swtch7

This could be in the wrong forum, but since I have a turbo im posting it here.

What I was wondering is... since I have lower compression pistons in my b16a (8/5/1) and it idles like crap on any base map I burn, should I change the ignition tables at all. The reason why I ask this is because while its idling like crap I can advance the distributor all the way and it runs just about perfect. So if I need to adjust the ignition tables at all, does any one know a good formula to use?


my setup
b16a
obd1 p72/uberdata
turbo / 7psi
rc 440

thanks.

swtch7

I have posted this in the uberdata forums as well and havnt got any response.

BlueShadow

How are your AFR's at idle? did you try advancing your timing a little at idle to see if it improves?

swtch7

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueShadow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How are your AFR's at idle? did you try advancing your timing a little at idle to see if it improves?</TD></TR></TABLE>

When the distributor is in the middle and its the bad idle, the AFR is about 11. But once I advance the distributor all the way, the rpms go to around 700 and AFR is now 13ish.

But no I havnt advanced the timing in uberdata yet.

here is my base map

http://members.***.net/swtch7/b16turbo.bin

BlueShadow

You're saying your idle AFR is at 13:1?

Dont mess with moving the distro forwards and back to see what it will do. Use a timing light and set your timing so that it is at 16.5 degrees same as what is in your map.

Your idle and low vacuum AFR's should be closer to 15:1 or 16:1 if you want better fuel economy. 11:1 and 13:1 is too rich for your idle RPM AFR. Use the below "Golden Sheet" as a reference for what your AFR's should be at a given load/rpm cell. For the boost cells use 11:1 or 11.5:1 instead of 12:1.

swtch7

Thanks for you input, I havnt used a timing light on it just yet but will this weekend. The thing is I have leaned out the mixtures in uberdata / disabled open loop and tried various combinations. No matter what I do it still runs the same way.

BlueShadow

Have you tried taking out enough fuel so that your idle AFR is at 15:1 or 16:1?

0xenocron

Lower compression pistons will need a little more advance.

Stock cams, gears?

Set your distributor timing to stock and leave it. Change timing in the ignition maps within Uberdata until your AFRs and idle are a little nicer.

14.7-15.5 AFRs are fine for idle

swtch7

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueShadow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Have you tried taking out enough fuel so that your idle AFR is at 15:1 or 16:1?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yea I tried taking out fuel. In uberdata anything under 1000 RPM I lowed the fuel by 20 % and still no change. But I know uberdata is working because if I lower it to much the car wont start. But they never get any higher then 11ish while the distributor is in the middle.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xenocron &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Lower compression pistons will need a little more advance.

Stock cams, gears?

Set your distributor timing to stock and leave it. Change timing in the ignition maps within Uberdata until your AFRs and idle are a little nicer.

14.7-15.5 AFRs are fine for idle </TD></TR></TABLE>

the cams are crower turbo cams stage II. It has stock gears though. Do you have any suggestions for the ignition timing? Right now its 16.5, well the stock p30 ignition map.

BlueShadow

What are you using to datalog with? are you using a display of some sort for your setup, or are you going entirely through UD's datalogging. And what have you done to make sure it is displaying the correct AFR's in UD and your widebands AFR monitor/controller?

swtch7

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueShadow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What are you using to datalog with? are you using a display of some sort for your setup, or are you going entirely through UD's datalogging. And what have you done to make sure it is displaying the correct AFR's in UD and your widebands AFR monitor/controller?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I ordered the USB data logger from moates yesterday. Basically im just trying to get a basemap for idle. So no, I haven’t done any data logging. But I did verify my fuel pressure, AFR through my wideband/display, and my vacuum all through my gauges.

adseguy

I've taken out 50% in idle before....keep taking out fuel it'll eventualy lean out. I take or add fuel in idle by using a 4x4 square at the top left hand corner, from 500rpm to 1250.

therealPROJEKTEG

like everyone else said, change your idle timing in your uberdata map to 16° (default is 16.5 in uber), then upload/burn that bin and set your timing with a timing light to 16° via the distributor, after that DON'T touch your dizzy any more, then go in and start adding timing in uber, not from your distributor. just add like 2° at a time until you get it where you want it.

swtch7

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by therealPROJEKTEG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">like everyone else said, change your idle timing in your uberdata map to 16° (default is 16.5 in uber), then upload/burn that bin and set your timing with a timing light to 16° via the distributor, after that DON'T touch your dizzy any more, then go in and start adding timing in uber, not from your distributor. just add like 2° at a time until you get it where you want it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sounds good, ill give that a shot when I get home.
But is it normal to advance timing for lower comp motors?

Thank you everyone who had input for me. ill let you know how it goes.

BlueShadow

Usually for lower compression, larger bore motors or really large injectors you want to advance timing to improve the idle.

swtch7

thanks for the info, im going to try this out tonight and ill post the results. thanks

SOHC_MShue

Are you even using a timing light to set your base timing? That is a must.

swtch7

not yet, im doing that this afternoon. I was just trying to start my car, not even drive it.

0xenocron

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BlueShadow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Usually for lower compression, larger bore motors or really large injectors you want to advance timing to improve the idle.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Lower comp motors will most likely want a little more timing in the entire map.

Although, you can only say this with certainty on a dyno and by reading plugs.

swtch7

here is the most updated info. I tried changing the maps to 16 and work from there. That didnt change anything. I did do timing on the motor and got it to 16. But still idled like crap. So i got pissed off and decided to put the stock injectors back in and burn a stock p30

so I did that, ran like ****. AFR was reading just Rich, meaning it was lower then 10. So i put the stock jdm p30 (unchipped) ecu back in and still ran the same way. So its something with the car, not the ecu or injectors. please help.

Now I am getting an o2 cel. But I have the narrow band of my plxm300 wide band feeding the ecu at pin d14 to simulate the o2. In uber the heating element is turned off.

Some one please help asap, im going out of my mind.

swtch7

I think this is hand in hand. Could this be causing all my problems?

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1309209

SOHC_MShue

do you have the voltage conversion setup right for the wideband to act as a narroband input. If that doesn't work try tuning your part throttle maps with closed loop disabled so you aren't pig rich.

swtch7

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">do you have the voltage conversion setup right for the wideband to act as a narroband input. If that doesn't work try tuning your part throttle maps with closed loop disabled so you aren't pig rich. </TD></TR></TABLE>

yes the narrowband voltage is right, i verified with a volt meter.

I did disable open loop, increased the maps by 1% all the way up to a 12AFR at idle, then went up 1 more % and it jumped up to 19AFR. Im gonna try to hook the stock o2 back up.

300whpOrBust

I don't mean to thread jack, but whats this timing light?

swtch7

just a gun that you shoot at the crank pully and you move the distributor to line the timing.