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youre right, idk i guess i want to figure it out before taking it my tuner just for my own peace of mind, but at this point im guessing and wasting money lol. will my tuner be able to diagnose any easier with hondata/neptune vs crome? i know crome is basic stuff, but ive heard that hondata is pretty much the same - igntion and fuel tables etc.
I’ve never messed with crome, but have heard that the data logging capabilities are not very good witch never helps when trying to diagnose a problem. I know a few tuners that just gave up even data logging with crome and tune without data logging at all lol. Obviously your tune won’t turn out as well when doing that, but it works...kinda lol. So yes you will probably have better results with hondata or Neptune, plus you get a lot of extra features that actually work.
Friday of last week I took my car to RLZ for tuning and Im still beside myself with the results. The car did great and exceeded my expectations. I went into it expecting mid 200s and told myself I would be happy with anything over 260whp. I have no idea what spring in is my wastegate, but it made 18 psi on gate pressure LOL!!! First pull it made 304 and final results were 321whp and 278 tq. at 18-19 psi. The car pulls like a freight train and is way faster than I thought it would be. To be fair, this is the first fast vehicle ive owned in a while. Ive been driving jeeps since 2011ish and all of my friends have sold their fast cars in years past. Anyway, I want to say thank you to the folks that helped me get the car running, Greg at Go-Autoworks, Howard at RLZ, The Shodan of Honda-Tech, friend and HT member CRXsmoke, who helped me build the car, boosted94gsr, whose shitboxeg build i practically copied lol, and many other HT members who offered excellent advice with regard to part selection etc. Ill try to take some video of a pull and get a dyno vid from my friend. For now i shall post a few pics of the dyno chart and car.
What ems did you end up using? I bet that thing is a blast to drive. I can still remember my hatch at that power level, it was so much damn fun to drive and you don’t have to worry about constantly breaking parts at this power level. I remember beating the living **** out of my hatch and it just never gave up lol.
I went with the chip version of Neptune and added a Bluetooth module for data logging and tablet based Tunerview capabilities. Yea, it is pretty wild man, it sounds and feels way better than i expected. Every time i do a pull i stay grinning for hours lol. If im honest, im a little worried about the block holding together for the long term but the tune was pretty safe. AFRs are mid to low 11s in boost and my tuner said he was really conservative with timing and that he could have added another 5 degrees. I asked him to keep timing conservative to help preserve the rods but he said he couldnt pull any more without increasing egts. So far so good, ive taken a few of my friends and family for a ride and all of them were like "holy ****!" lol
Actually, these engines (both non-vtec & vtec) like ignition timing, and actually get better efficiency burn for the cylinder pressures than to "be conservative". You'd also run into boost stability issues being too conservative. Going to about 11.5-11.8AFR is optimal, and you won't really "kill the rods". That's more dependant on the intercooler you're running to keep cylinder pressures down, than ignition timing. In the meantime, make sure that you're using good fuel and plugs to resist engine knock, as B18B1s get a little finicky when it comes to fuel choice. (especially on cooler days)
Small turbos are awesome, especially on non-vtec cars, where you're getting a closer power-to-torque match. That means better powerband throughout the rpm, which is why you're pretty maxed out on your super 60. (You didn't need anymore "power" anyway) But boy is it fun!
Actually, these engines (both non-vtec & vtec) like ignition timing, and actually get better efficiency burn for the cylinder pressures than to "be conservative". You'd also run into boost stability issues being too conservative. Going to about 11.5-11.8AFR is optimal, and you won't really "kill the rods". That's more dependant on the intercooler you're running to keep cylinder pressures down, than ignition timing. In the meantime, make sure that you're using good fuel and plugs to resist engine knock, as B18B1s get a little finicky when it comes to fuel choice. (especially on cooler days)
Small turbos are awesome, especially on non-vtec cars, where you're getting a closer power-to-torque match. That means better powerband throughout the rpm, which is why you're pretty maxed out on your super 60. (You didn't need anymore "power" anyway) But boy is it fun!
yea man, its making way more than i anticipated, im happy with the power level. as far as timing, as i understand it, keeping ignition timing conservative can help make the turbo spool later, thus keeping peak torque later in the rpm range, thus extending the life of the rods. thats the only reason we didnt push the timing. as far as AFRs, i just wanted to keep power low to be honest. could it have been more efficent and powerful at 11.8 (11.8 is what we initially talked about targeting on the dyno), sure, but it would have made more power and i was already squirming at 320 lol. the only fuel i use is Shell 93 octane and the plugs are bkr7e's gapped to .028
Originally Posted by Autoworks
That looks great! I love the motor/turbo combination. It delivers where needed
yea man its a riot on the street!
Originally Posted by 2x0
Awesome work, and congrats on those numbers! Glad to see a happy result on a build thread.
So was the misfire issue just something in the tune?
thanks man! well, funny thing is, no, we never could pinpoint anything. I thought it might be valvetrain related so before tuning i swapped the entire valvetrain with another set of oem cams, rockers, and no change. then i bought 77lb Supertech springs and retainers and still no change. So, i said ima put on the dyno and see what happens - If it acts funny at part throttle then well call it, if it does ok, then well go for it. So we went for it and said a prayer lol.
Question for you guys that have experience with tuning. My car should cut fuel when off throttle coasting in gear, right? When Im cruising and start to lift, the AFRs get richer and when I'm off throttle completely it stays around 12-13.5 and when I get back on the throttle it sputters for a sec and a puff of black smoke comes out the exhaust (according to my friend that was behind me.) Did my tuner overlook a few columns on a fuel map? Maybe that's just how he tunes cars? Do some tuners intentionally keep the injectors on when coasting in gear? Also when I start to roll on the gas if I'm about to do a full throttle pull, AFRs go pretty lean (16-17) right before the turbo comes on and then it fattens up to 11s right when boost builds. Is that normal? I figured it should be 14ish cruising and then start getting richer as soon as I dip in the throttle (12-13s) and stay there until boost. Any thoughts are appreciated.
Yes your injectors should shut off with throttle closed while moving in gear. Setting injector dead times incorrectly can affect this, and so can improperly calibrated TPS readings. If the ecu thinks the throttle is still open slightly, it won’t shut off injectors.
The second thing you mentioned can be adjusted by adding throttle tip in trim, at least on Hondata. I have mine at about 20%. This is for when you punch the throttle, to keep it from leaning out before it has a chance to catch up from the sudden change in MAP.
Question for you guys that have experience with tuning. My car should cut fuel when off throttle coasting in gear, right? When Im cruising and start to lift, the AFRs get richer and when I'm off throttle completely it stays around 12-13.5 and when I get back on the throttle it sputters for a sec and a puff of black smoke comes out the exhaust (according to my friend that was behind me.) Did my tuner overlook a few columns on a fuel map? Maybe that's just how he tunes cars? Do some tuners intentionally keep the injectors on when coasting in gear? Also when I start to roll on the gas if I'm about to do a full throttle pull, AFRs go pretty lean (16-17) right before the turbo comes on and then it fattens up to 11s right when boost builds. Is that normal? I figured it should be 14ish cruising and then start getting richer as soon as I dip in the throttle (12-13s) and stay there until boost. Any thoughts are appreciated.
Like others suggested make sure your tps is calibrated properly. In Neptune you can set min tps and max rpm for decel fuel cut to engage. I believe default setting are under 5% tps and above 1800rpms it will cut. I typically set mine to 3% tps & above 1200 rpm for decel fuel cut. I just hate seeing a rich aft when off the throttle lol. As for as going lean for a sec when hitting the throttle that can be tps tip in fuel enrichment (another reason why it’s important to calibrate your tps) or your injector offsets are off. Really the only thing you can do without access to get into your tune is to make sure everything mechanically is good and make sure your tps is calibrated.
Thanks fam. I'm gonna swing by RLZ tomorrow and ask Howard about it. If i remember correctly, he set my injector size as 1000 in the injector parameters and i think mine flow 1000 at 55 psi but 840 at 43 psi. Since im running a stock regulator/fuel pressure, could that create the symptoms im experiencing?
Thanks fam. I'm gonna swing by RLZ tomorrow and ask Howard about it. If i remember correctly, he set my injector size as 1000 in the injector parameters and i think mine flow 1000 at 55 psi but 840 at 43 psi. Since im running a stock regulator/fuel pressure, could that create the symptoms im experiencing?
Oh yeah.. You need an aftermarket regulator to control those injectors mechanically. It's not just in the tune itself. I'm surprised you didn't do that already. (And no, a B&M Fuel "modifyer" is not the same as a fuel "regulator" from Fuel Lab or Aeromotive, so watch out for that.)
Thanks fam. I'm gonna swing by RLZ tomorrow and ask Howard about it. If i remember correctly, he set my injector size as 1000 in the injector parameters and i think mine flow 1000 at 55 psi but 840 at 43 psi. Since im running a stock regulator/fuel pressure, could that create the symptoms im experiencing?
You can use a stock fpr without issues, especially at this power level. Anytime your base fuel pressure changes the injector latency needs to change as well to compensate for the change. This is much more important on a MAF based EFI vs a speed density (MAP based EFI) like you have because you have a lot more resolution in the fuel map to compensate. Where as with a MAF based EFI you have a much simpler 2d MAF scale for an entire target afr map, so if something is off like injector latency (also know as dead times, & battery offsets) it really throws a wrench in the whole thing. So what im basically saying is if your tuner spent a decent amount of time to get your whole fuel map tuned and entered the correct injector information then your problem is probably something simple like tps calibration or a quick tps tip in fuel enrichment change. Also keep in mind once it’s tuned if you change base fuel pressure you will need to have your fuel map retuned and injector latency updated to compensate. So I wouldn’t go putting a fuel pressure regulator on it as I’m sure you have plenty of head room at this power level with your current injectors.
Oh yeah.. You need an aftermarket regulator to control those injectors mechanically. It's not just in the tune itself. I'm surprised you didn't do that already. (And no, a B&M Fuel "modifyer" is not the same as a fuel "regulator" from Fuel Lab or Aeromotive, so watch out for that.)
i didnt think i needed an aftermarket regulator to be honest. i took note from others builds and i even asked howard if it was necessary and he said stock was fine
You can use a stock fpr without issues, especially at this power level. Anytime your base fuel pressure changes the injector latency needs to change as well to compensate for the change. This is much more important on a MAF based EFI vs a speed density (MAP based EFI) like you have because you have a lot more resolution in the fuel map to compensate. Where as with a MAF based EFI you have a much simpler 2d MAF scale for an entire target afr map, so if something is off like injector latency (also know as dead times, & battery offsets) it really throws a wrench in the whole thing. So what im basically saying is if your tuner spent a decent amount of time to get your whole fuel map tuned and entered the correct injector information then your problem is probably something simple like tps calibration or a quick tps tip in fuel enrichment change. Also keep in mind once it’s tuned if you change base fuel pressure you will need to have your fuel map retuned and injector latency updated to compensate. So I wouldn’t go putting a fuel pressure regulator on it as I’m sure you have plenty of head room at this power level with your current injectors.
10-4 well see how it goes tomorrow. hopefully it something small. if my injector flow is 840 at 43 psi and it was set as 1000 in neptune, would i need a complete retune?
i didnt think i needed an aftermarket regulator to be honest. i took note from others builds and i even asked howard if it was necessary and he said stock was fine
Stock is fine for a car to possibly function, but not to fine tune idle or anything on large injectors like that, whether or not they are High-z Bosch. So, Nah, it's a matter of thinking forward. Not just by budget. Go get a regulator, my friend.
10-4 well see how it goes tomorrow. hopefully it something small. if my injector flow is 840 at 43 psi and it was set as 1000 in neptune, would i need a complete retune?
edit: injectors are southbay 1000s btw
No because the fuel map was already tuned with that information entered. You would only need to retune the fuel map only IF you changed fuel pressure or injector latency. You likely just need a couple quick changes like decel fuel cut, and tip in fuel enrichment is my best guess based on what you said.
Stock is fine for a car to possibly function, but not to fine tune idle or anything on large injectors like that, whether or not they are High-z Bosch. So, Nah, it's a matter of thinking forward. Not just by budget. Go get a regulator, my friend.
ok i understand. as soon as im not poor again ill buy a regulator
No because the fuel map was already tuned with that information entered. You would only need to retune the fuel map only IF you changed fuel pressure or injector latency. You likely just need a couple quick changes like decel fuel cut, and tip in fuel enrichment is my best guess based on what you said.
ok thanks. ill report back after i go to rlz tomorrow with the results
12-06-2017, 08:41 AM
re: K20z1ej1's "Hunter" turbo B18B build thread
and the plugs are bkr7e's gapped to .028
10-4 well see how it goes tomorrow. hopefully it something small. if my injector flow is 840 at 43 psi and it was set as 1000 in neptune, would i need a complete retune?