ojasia

Is there some reason I can't understand why you can't? Wouldn't it be atleast beneficial? To...
Air filter > front mount intercooler > cold air intake piping > jrsc throttle bodie.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

it would serve no purpose to have the intercooler before the supercharger....


maybe you need to read into how an intercooler works and what it does

ojasia

Well I imagined it would help IAT's, same thing as a CAI but with the addition of an IC. But the SC creates pressure...pressure creates heat so is it a losing battle or anyone think I can drop Temps enough for the (justification for fabrication) . Is the VHT intercooler work well because it's in between the IM and SC and that's why it works well, cause it's cooling the charged/pressurized air?
I figured air pulled in intake 80*f air passes through IC 60*f air is pressurized heat soak + =150*f
Now all that without IC everything same except for the 20* reduction
Numbers not factual just all theory in mind. Any other thoughts? Other then researching unrelated turbo 101 info. I understand venturi effects and radiators just fine. Will it work enough for justification is my? If you don't kno an answer don't just bag on sum1 to get your comm.'s up or try to be the first to lead the flame train.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

how would you get air at ambient temp (being drawn through the intercooler) below ambient if you're cooling it with ambient temp air(the air passing through the core, cooling the intake air)? simple you can't

The intercooler has to be after the supercharger since compressing air heats it.. and the ambient temp air passing through the core heats the cooled air back down as close to ambient as possible. technically it's a charge air cooler, not an intercooler (different terminology)

the way a jrsc is installed makes it impossible to plumb the system for a fmic and putting a fmic between the filter and supercharger inlet would do nothing but reduce cooling air flow to the radiator and cause an increase in pumping losses and thus less power/efficiency

read the faq... or I'll just lock and delete this thread, since I'm by no means trolling, at least not yet. this isn't GDD and it sure as hell isn't misc tech...

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

very basic question to shut this thread down...

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY/HOW AN INTERCOOLER WORKS?

Yes? You're lying
No? Let me Google that for you...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+does+an+intercooler+work%3F

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced...tercooler.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...ercooler-works

ojasia

When you burn your hand do you have your mouth wide open and blow on it or blow on it with fish lips.... the air passing through the fins and the charge will cool according to venturi effects. Sitting at the red light is Frikin hot on a motorcycle but as soon as I start moving I'm cool .... it's All the same "ambient" temp. Thanks for clarifying that the VHT cools in between tho, it's just back to the drawing board no biggy don't get your panties in a bunch lock or delete it unless you need another science class.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

the venturi effect doesn't work when you have a huge aluminum mass that heat soaks easier than it cools....

the venturi effect doesn't apply when you're talking about passages in the core that are less than 1/4" in height and only 2-2.5" wide and 20"-30" in length

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

you'd be better off spraying water/methanol before the supercharger.. not only would it cool the air pre-charger but it would reduce the heat from compression as well as increasing the knock threshold and a slight boost in octane.

you're trying to make a square wheel

ojasia

You have a point on the soak, but wouldon't it be just as bad just having a cai and without any air passing over the Intake charge it more than likely gonna be hotter then fmic setup.
BTW wouldn't soak make the IAT's hotter then the ambient Temps. Your Post about cooling ambient Temps with ambient Temps kind of sounds ignorant now huh?. Everyone gets heat soak it's parasitic.
Well I'm sure I will be the first to dyno IAT's like this because of the common misconception that theoryes and trials are unheard of. And the FI "faqs" stickied thread is law got it. Thanks
Has an1 else have half a plan to cool the pressured charge of the h22 jrsc?

ojasia

I have thought about that as well, but this isn't a water meth thread is it. If you thought I didn't know anything about fmic lol I kno even less on those.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

you don't even have half a plan... what the actual **** are you talking about?

ojasia

How long will a gal. Last, does it only spray at wot?

ojasia

Your thinking way to deep on this... you said pressure charge has to be cooled so I was asking an1 got anything obviously other then you considering :/

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

the rule of thumb is 1cc-2cc/min per hp made. just as an example with an injection rate of 500cc/min that's 7.93 gallons per hour.

assuming your jrsc kit makes between 250-300hp(max)

you're looking at an starting injection rate of 250-300cc to a max rate of 500-600cc'min, so that's 3.96 gallons per hour minimum to 9.51 gallons per hour max

you want it to come on before WOT, most kits have a standalone controller where you set the ON psi (when it starts injecting) and the MAX psi setting (when it sprays the maximum amount). Ideally you want to datalog IATs and wherever they start getting high that's when you want the methanol to come on, some have it setup where it comes on as soon as positive pressure is made but with a JRSC on an H22 you'd blow through a gallon faster than you can imagine

you really don't use a lot as most street driving is low load/low rpm. as an example our c6 z06 makes 680rwhp and about 630lbft na out of a 7 liter motor with meth injection on 100 octane. with a 50/50 blend we are injecting somewhere between 650cc-1000cc/min

we did a 2 day track day at Road Atlanta in stupid high temps so at first with the higher rates due to the 90F-120F ambient temps we were going through almost a gallon in 20-30 minutes, when it cooled off we dropped down a bit with the rate and had it come on a tad later... so 2 days, 7-8 hours a day of driving hard, was 4 gallons of methanol.

on the street in that car a gallon lasts forever, since you can't really get on it hard without smoking the tires or getting arrested lol.

It's also cheaper to blend your own, most boat or race shops near you should sell methanol by the gallon, somewhere around 3-4 dollars per gallon. So total each gallon of mix is about 4 bucks, wayyyy cheaper than Snows Boost Juice or other companies pre mix.

Then you buy distilled water for about a buck a gallon and mix by weight.

Methanol weighs 6.63lb per gallon
Water weighs 8.34lb per gallon

so if you're making 5lbs of 50/50 (2.5gal meth, 2.5gal water) you'd do the following

put a container on a scale and zero
pour methanol till scale weighs 16.575lb (6.63x2.5)
zero scale
pour water till scale reads 20.85lb (8.34x2.5)
done

one thing we do to distinguish our different mixture ratios (50/50, 70/30 and so on) is to dye each mixture with food coloring which won't hurt performance or any components. Since everyone associates 50/50 with being red due to Snow Performances Boost Juice, we dye our 50/50 blends red and everything else gets a vivid color so there's no confusion.


BE WARNED.

injecting a lot of methanol before the supercharger has been known to do a few things

1. Strip the coating off of the rotors... due to the expansion rate of the water/methanol mixture along with the steam cleaning and sand blasting effect of the vapor/droplets hitting a fast moving rotor it will literally eat the coating away, killing the efficiency of the charger while causing a performance and economy decrease along with higher post charger IATs

2. Puddling within the charger body

This is more so when you let off or get on it hard at low rpm/high gears. with enough methanol you saturate the intake charge where not all of the methanol vaporizes or evaporates. it's been known to pool in the low points in the system and can wreak havoc if enough liquid is sucked into the motor at once.

3. uneven methanol distribution

since the "intake plenum" after the charger has such short runners (if you can even call them that) a lot of people have found that each cylinder doesn't get an equal amount of methanol. If you are pushing your motor to the limit on a certain fuel and/or have really aggressive ignition timing then the uneven distribution can cause one or more cylinders to have a different air/fuel ratio which can lead to running lean, detonation, knock, etc and kill a motor... or conversely one cylinder can get more, causing a rich situation along with elevated EGTs (yes running too rich can do this), potentially washing the rings, and so on.

so be careful

Muckman

iTrader: (2)

Setup a test and measure the intake temp before and after the intercooler. Then report back.

Freemananana

iTrader: (3)

Basically you're asking if a FMIC would be beneficial on a NA application.

The answer is, and always has been, no.

boostjunkie757

lol..



this reminds me of the **** i got for proposing such a plan for painting intercoolers..

Freemananana

iTrader: (3)

Did you post the thread about black intercooler making a difference?

boostjunkie757

no, the reason i had proposed the method for someone else to conduct said experiment was because i was curious if it did actually had a positive correlational effect on charge temperatures..

if you dont perform the experiment correctly, or the intercooler is painted using questionable methods the results could come out skewed...but whatever, ive lost interest / dont really care that much.

Freemananana

iTrader: (3)

I don't recall what you are talking about exactly. It's hard to get quantifiable data without someone criticizing how you did the testing. I have a black intercooler just because I wanted it to look similar to the stock radiator/condenser.

There are no real gains to be had with an intercool on a JRSC that is part of the intake manifold. You can't route the air from the SC to the IC, then to the intake.

boostjunkie757

its all gravy. and on the intercooler for a jrsc, it is possible but not for a fmic. and it would be an air/water intercooler that really wouldnt work too well, because it would have to be attached to the head so it has heat soaking from both directions.

Freemananana

iTrader: (3)

Oh yes... Not to mention the space those take up. I feel like the intake manifold to firewall clearance would be at it's limits, if it even fits.

boostjunkie757

that too.




my opinion, if you want to go supercharged on a honda, go centrifugal. yeah, its basically a turbo on a stick, but you actually get more results than roots style. AND you can use a front mount to cool the charge some. but these reasons are specifically why i went the turbo route....well, technically i didnt know any of this when i made my decision. a coworker and i were talking about mods i could do to the LS i used to have, and i was contemplating an h22 swap.

bulluss: what type of engine does your integra have?
me: LS..
bulluss: why dont you just turbo that one? its low compression its basically begging for it..
me: what is this turbo you speak of?
bulluss: you know what, perhaps you should go supercharged..
me: well, pound for pound, which makes more power?
bulluss: well, the turbo..
me: why the hell would i want supercharged then?

this conversation was back in like 2001 or 2002..

Freemananana

iTrader: (3)

I don't like superchargers because of the parasitic loss. I've read theories about top fuel drag racing and the possible advantages to running turbos instead of the superchargers. It is all preference in the end and has a lot to do with the purpose of the vehicle

boostjunkie757

yeah, the whole it takes power to make power thing..



my opinion, its better to have free power that is made off of a product of the powerplant that doesnt take anything to make more.