PrecisionH23a

I have done a search and came up with some good info sofar.

I will be using the j&s with my hondata 4b, however I will not need it for boost timing retard. I strictly just want it for knock protection, so I have been told the Classic is the way to go.

Does the classic detect the onset of detonation and retard the timing on a per cylinder basis or just strictly monitors it on a gauge? The bad news is that the classic is no longer available and I really don't like the idea of buying used electronics. So if i do purchase the Ultraguard with the ignition control, how do I over-ride it so hondata takes care of everything?

I am still doing some research on the unit but there are several differnent versions and I am not sure what to go with. I am not purchasing this unit to bandaid poor tuning whatsoever, just as an extra safety measure so if I blow another headgasket I will know when I am detonating instead of 'thinking' i hear detonation.

Thanks in advance.

Ben Huynh

iTrader: (6)

For info on the J&S units check out:

http://www.jandssafeguard.com

SlowTeg

Spend your money on something else..

-Mike

PrecisionH23a

Ben, I have checked their site already. I just thought i would ask you guys since you have some experience with the pieces and what not. I'll try giving them a call tomorrow as well. Thanks.

int3gra

this version:

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0353

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by int3gra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this version:

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0353 </TD></TR></TABLE>

damn good link!


Well I have the same questions too. I basially want to use hondata to tune my car but also want a 2nd system that I can monitor the knoch/detanation amount from my engine. I know that the J&S system will automatically retard timing according to detnation readings but will that affect in corralation of how the hondata system works?

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

damn that was a good article.. if you have time read back in DIY part 1.

Quote from the link
" .........As you will have by now realised, electronically sensing when detonation is occurring is not at all simple. A number of aftermarket approaches are taken to this problem. Most typical is a general-purpose detonation sensor that is mechanically attached to the block, with its signal output being monitored by a dedicated meter. The meter can display either by means of a bargraph LED display or an analogue needle the severity of detected detonation. One example of this type of approach can be seen in the Safeguard, an interceptor-type module that uses an added knock sensor to detect detonation. Not only is the severity of detonation shown on a row of LEDs, but the appropriate retarding of the ignition timing can also be programmed to occur. Two knock sensors are available to work with the system, with the sensor being selected on the basis of cylinder bore diameter.
Now the interesting point is that the dyno operator - listening directly to the engine - could detect when detonation was occurring well before the piezo knock sensor and dedicated electronic module could hear it! (Overall the Safeguard didn't work terribly well, the salesman - probably quite correctly - suggesting that the particular knock sensor being used wasn't a good match for the engine.)

.....In Australia, Jaycar Electronics have sold a knock detector kit developed by Silicon Chip magazine. This uses the input of a fabricated or factory knock detector, with the electronic inputs including an ignition input signal so that listening only occurs in the right piston positions. As a contributor to that magazine, I was involved in specifying the design of this system, and also tested it in action on turbo cars. And so I'm in a good position to state that the detector is not very good at picking high-rpm knock! As with so many knock detection systems, the problem is that the sensor will detect general engine noise - rather than detonation - if engine rpm is high. "

*now what i really wanted to question was that... when or IF i get a J&S system should I get a better knock sensor for my car?

*For all the honda/acura applications that come with a knock sensor.... does the ECU automacitally adjust/self correct when a detonation detected' outcome leads to a retard in ignition timing in most factory engine management systems?
I never really though about that until now.

SlowTeg

First off everyone knows by now that the stock ECU does squat w/ the factory knock sensor. And what it does isn't really all that helpful to us.

To answer your question, the J&S is wired to the ICM wire AFTER the ecu, so the ecu doesn't even have a clue that you're pulling timing. It works independently. Also, I'm not a huge fan of the J&S because several people I know have blown their motors w/ this device, and I question how well it really works..

The main problem with the unit is that you have to get the sensitivity PERFECT, or it's either not going to pick up the knock, or it hears crap when there is no knock. I had one myself for a while, and I say spend your $ elsewhere. W/ forged pistons, my J&S kept picking up knock at strange times when it shouldn't have been. All this does is make you second guess when the thing picks up knock when it might be relevant... This probably had to do w/ the fact that the motor is a little noisier than normal, but still then the J&S doesn't do u any good. Also, the J&S reacts to detonation, so it could already be too late when the next time around the J&S pulls timing.

I say just tune your car properly, keep an eye on things while you're driving, and you should be ok. Much more than that you can't really help, because sometimes no matter how careful you are, **** happens.

If you really MUST have a knock meter, I believe MSD makes one that is 5-6x cheaper, that just monitors knock, but should do the trick.

-Mike

Blue-Civic-Hybrid

iTrader: (1)

I have a JS Ultra Safegaurd that is nearly brand new...PM me for pics and price...

PrecisionH23a

I've been doing some thinking as to the replies that have been provided sofar. Basically I want the J&S sensor to make sure I am not detonating. I see a lot of you guys are opposed to the system and think money should be spent elsewhere. And the whole idea of picking up chatter from the road or from forged pistons will probably make me worry more then I really should.

I ran into a problem last time of a blown headgasket which made me run lean which led to a few other internal problems. I want to take any step possible to prevent that in the future this time. And yes the car was tuned properly but a problem with the ignition popped up. So if I were to theoretically blow another headgasket, I will more then likely run lean since coolant will enter the combustion chamber and what not. Correct? So instead of the J&S I could invest in a nice wideband 02 sensor. If I notice a drop in the a/f ratio AFTER the car has been finely dyno tuned, then that should tell me if something is wrong.

Now, the ignition part of the deal. I have heard alot of MSD units going to hell. How exactly can I monitor to make sure everything is up to par?

sharkcohen

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So if i do purchase the Ultraguard with the ignition control, how do I over-ride it so hondata takes care of everything?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Turn the "start" **** all the way up, and the "rate" **** all the way down.

PrecisionH23a

And doing that will still enable it to retard timing per cylinder when it detects detonation?

sharkcohen

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GudeH23a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And doing that will still enable it to retard timing per cylinder when it detects detonation?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yup.

danl

J&S units typically do pick up motor noise on some engines. This is strange as many turbo cars have factory knock sensors AND factory forged internals. I have noticed that some brands of pistons are noisier than others which may be a contributing factor.

The J&S is a reactive device. That means that it can help lessen detonation if you have a problem, but if the problem is very severe it doesen't have the ability to pull enough timing to save the motor. Even factory ecu's with knock sensors can't save motors if things go to far wrong. I can easilly detonate my car at low boost if I dont' have it tuned right, and even with teh ecu pulling out 15 degrees of timing it still detonates!

You can tune a car perfect, but when the weather changes so does your tune. Its nice to have an active knock sensing system, and the J&S would fit the bill nicley as long as it doesen't pick up stray signals.

As a note, that article above may be talking about earlier versions of the J&S. Version II has a timed "window" that it listens for detonation, much like a factory system. THis helps elimiate picking up "stray" sounds.

PrecisionH23a

Thanks for the info danl, i apprecaite it.

I found a J&S classic for sale, however I need to know if it looks like if it is missing a plug in the circled area below:

Sonny

That's normal. It should look like that.

J&S Safeguard

I have yet to have a problem with street tuning my car using the Safeguard. Excellent tool, IMO.

Sonny

sharkcohen

I am very happy with my J&S. It doesn't seem to be picking up any engine noise, as I carefully set the sensitivity while my setup was still stock (hadn't yet installed the JRSC). I ran WOT runs up and down my street, reducing the sensitivity until just when the J&S stopped pulling timing for incidental noise (as the instructions suggest to do).

It has had to pull timing on occasion for detonation, especially when the warm weather hit this year, activity that disappeared immediately after I pulled timing in the tune.

PrecisionH23a

Sorry for the 5 million questions, but how does it work with pulling timing when hondata is used in the combination? Same way it pulls timing on a stock ecu or is it a little different?

sharkcohen

It works the same as with your stock ecu, as the J&S is installed between the ecu and the ignition system, and adjusting the timing signal to the igniter if it detects knock on the knock sensor circuit. With the start **** all the way up and the rate **** all the way down, the boost timing control is essentially disabled, allowing the hondata unit to take care of that task.

No worries about all the questions, it is better to know exactly how a component works.

Charlie Moua

iTrader: (3)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sharkcohen &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It works the same as with your stock ecu, as the J&S is installed between the ecu and the ignition system, and adjusting the timing signal to the igniter if it detects knock on the knock sensor circuit. With the start **** all the way up and the rate **** all the way down, the boost timing control is essentially disabled, allowing the hondata unit to take care of that task.

No worries about all the questions, it is better to know exactly how a component works.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So if you do that (start **** all the way UP and the rate **** all the way DOWN) it will allow HONDATA to automatically readjust timing base on what is senses?

I was not aware that hondata can automactially self correct the timing like the feature of the j&S system.

sharkcohen

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Charlie Moua &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So if you do that (start **** all the way UP and the rate **** all the way DOWN) it will allow HONDATA to automatically readjust timing base on what is senses?

I was not aware that hondata can automactially self correct the timing like the feature of the j&S system. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, I think there is some sort of misconception in the questions being asked here in the thread, so let me make things clear. The J&S UltraSafeguard has two functions: boost timing retard and knock retard. For boost timing retard, the amount of retard is controlled by the rate ****, and at what boost level it starts doing this is controlled by the start ****. Of course, a Hondata unit has boost timing tables, so there is no need to use this Safeguard feature. To disable it on the safeguard, you turn the start **** all the way up (so it never starts) and the rate **** all the way down (so there is no boost/timing value). These **** settings do not affect the Safeguard's knock retard function. Unless the Safeguard hears knock on the knock sensor signal wire, it will pass whatever ignition signal generated by your ecu (stock ecu, Hondata, whatever) unmolested.

PrecisionH23a

One more question...

I run the P74 ecu, meaning hondata disables the knock sensor. Is this going to be a problem with the j&s?

ElectronMan

I'm running the J&S Classic on my Civic that was converted to the P28 (no knock sensor) and I have not experienced any problems.

danl

Who is running the J&S sucessfully with a built motor? If it is built, what pistons and what block. D or B series?

sharkcohen

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GudeH23a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One more question...

I run the P74 ecu, meaning hondata disables the knock sensor. Is this going to be a problem with the j&s?</TD></TR></TABLE>
You'll be fine.