I dont see the point in sleeving engines with bensons, darton, RS, etc...

why would you need to put sleeves in your engine if the stock one (b-series) can hold sometimes 500HP lets say an average of 400HP is it only cuz they look good ?

I can understand though if you want to bore at 85mm, but like I said if you only going to bore to 81.5 (like me) I dont see the point. I'd rather spend the extra 2000$ on fuel management and several dyno runs. Is it only me that thinks this way?????

 

Stock sleeves can hold 500whp, but for how long? You're not the only one that thinks this way, it can be done... it's just a lot harder, and it theoretically won't last nearly as long.

 

I said 500HP at the most,, but if you wnat to shoot for 300HP-350HP,, isn't wasting money that can go in better places? (tuning, dyno, head job, etc..)

 

i agree with u

all this people claims they wanna have 450+ whp and all that sh$%^

well on a daily driven car... 450+ is alot of power...
be realistic and open ur eyes
how many 450+ civics u see around when u got to car shows and cruise ins....
or even daily driven to go to work and do errands

building engines have lost their meaning
they dont built them to go fast and enjoy the haul or because u like speed or power
is now done just to beat the dude that has more money that u do and spanks ur ***

 

Because nowdays sleeving can be done for around $800. In the long run I think its well worth it.

 

tell that to all the guys that cracked a stock sleeve under 500hp. And this being the hobby of anything goes I think its always good to over shoot ur build. You want 350-400, build for 500hp, less of a problem in the long run.

just my .02

 

Sure you can make 500 on stock sleeves, but its risky...... Most people would rather not risk it. The extra 1000$ for a proper sleeve job is insurrance to most people. Its one less thing to worry about(unless u have to worry about the sleeve dropping)... Also, if u sleeve a motor to 81mm, and blow it up, ur block is still good. You just bore it out again and install new pistons. Blow a stock block twice and your out alot more then 1000.

 

i would sleeve it to insure everything... man 500whp on stock sleeves want last long.. if your going to put all that money in your motor, just do it right the first time... or you can keep making 500 whp on stock block and replace ever 3-4 mouths,but what evr floats your boat....

whats the longest anyone has seen a stock block last with 500whp?

 

are you guys def or what????

I said at the most 500HP I'm not looking for that range at all,, I said for 300HP-350HP,, now give me an argument to go with sleeves? instead of dyno, better fuel system, head job and all I said in the other post.

 

We're building an engine for about 320HP and keeping the stock sleeves. The GE block guard should help the cause.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FredoSP &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this being the hobby of anything goes I think its always good to over shoot ur build. You want 350-400, build for 500hp, less of a problem in the long run.</TD></TR></TABLE>

WORD! I am spending LOTS of money on my [initially] low boosting setup, but I'm doing it right the first time, over shooting my inital goals so I'll have room to play with. Never hurts [except in the wallet...]

Just to stay relevant, I'm going to eventually try to push 300 whp on stock bottom end.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by birz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I dont see the point in sleeving engines with bensons, darton, RS, etc...

why would you need to put sleeves in your engine if the stock one (b-series) can hold sometimes 500HP lets say an average of 400HP is it only cuz they look good ?

I can understand though if you want to bore at 85mm, but like I said if you only going to bore to 81.5 (like me) I dont see the point. I'd rather spend the extra 2000$ on fuel management and several dyno runs. Is it only me that thinks this way?????</TD></TR></TABLE>

I know what you mean dude, I think about whether to sleeve my block every ******* day... I'm not joking either

 

the extra insurance is worth it to most people who are considering a build up for only another $800 or so. And we all know how boost is, addicting, why build a motor that is topped out at 350-400 due to the stock sleeves when for another $800 up front you will feel very comfortable knowing that you have eliminated a very weak link in the 400+ hp chain.

 

plus, like with dyno tuning which has been mentioned in other posts,

Chicks did 'em.

 

ok I'll explain it in an other way:

All you guys, member of this venerable forum named honda-tech, always always and I mean it, swear by the tuning instead of putting all the best parts available on the market together and trying to boost without knowing everything. I mean isn't better to put the money in the tuning instead of in the sleeves? (800$ like the guy said) isn't wise?

Do you guys begin to see my point?

 

I see where you're coming from... but $800 is say what, three to five tuning sessions. then what happens when your tuner isn't there and you get antsy and want to turn it up just a little bit more to beat that fricken mustang. lol. ya know what I mean. Tuning is definately needed either way but the sleeves will make that crappy tune last a little longer.

I, like mentioned above, am all for going big and overboard the first time.

 

I think that even if you pay the best tuner to tune your car, you just dont
know if its going to let go or not. They can tune safely but you just dont know and I guess thats why some other honda-tech members strongly suggest you invest in sleeves. IMO

 

You are building a stock sleeved motor for under 500hp right? How long do you plan on keeping this setup? Because those hp levels can get old very fast. And a sleeved block isnt only good to 500hp, it can go to 600 even 700 hp. Sooo..The reason I say sleeve, is because you will probally want more power in the future.

 

Ask your tuner if he sees sleeves as necessary and go from there, if he's confident he can get the numbers you're looking for and maintain reliability on the stock sleeves then there's your answer.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by birz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I dont see the point in sleeving engines with bensons, darton, RS, etc...

why would you need to put sleeves in your engine if the stock one (b-series) can hold sometimes 500HP lets say an average of 400HP is it only cuz they look good ?

I can understand though if you want to bore at 85mm, but like I said if you only going to bore to 81.5 (like me) I dont see the point. I'd rather spend the extra 2000$ on fuel management and several dyno runs. Is it only me that thinks this way?????</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think the real issue is are sleeves even nessacary.If you look at the Core issue behind Why the sleeves break or crack for that matter it becomes fiarly obvious that the problem is not the Sleeve itself. The problem was in all honesty poor block design on hondas part.

dont think of you engine as a fixed mass of inflexiable material. the cylinder itself is a large chunk of material but its constantly flexing bending and twisting under load constantly. the cylinder walls in a running engine actually look like rubber bands if you watched them move in the world of thousandths of inches.

To really understand the problem takes perspective and some engineering know how. I posed this problem to sevral engineers at the bg 3 here in detriot. We all came back to the same thing. There is nothing securing the damn bores. So why during noraml or even N/A use the cylinder pressure never become high enough to perhaps flex the cylinder head. Under boost they certianley rise high enough to allow the head to unseat a few thondths and allow the bore to move. Wahts really very intereesting about the problem is not that the sleeve actualy crack while the engine is running. they crack when the load comes off and the head clamps down and now take the top of the cylinder and compress's it unevenly. As the engine cools of course the stress on this single side of the bore becomes masive. The crack starts in the middle of the bore becuase thats the point of highest deflection relative to the other ends of the bore which are anchored by the cylinder head and the lower end of the block.

Do darton sleeves solve this problem ? yes and no. They add a new dimension to the mix with even more material that expands at a far different thermal rate then the existing liners and bore.

Secondly. How does Darton etc etc etc help to suport the crankshaft saddle by reducing the amount of avaibel structure to help hold the main bearing journals for the crankshaft in place ?

third. when does anybody actually try to unify the structure of the block ?

If done alot of reasearch on the subject and the best way to fix the sleeve problem is to completely weld the deck to the outerblock wall and add a few gussets to stiffen the wall then lay a headgasket on it and mill out the coolant hole properly.

the problem with block guards is that they dont really atach to or unify anything.

So how much HP you make is up to you. But a high revving engine with lower peak combustion pressure most likely will not break sleeves like a low revving high pressure high TQ engine.

So do you really needs sleeves ? thats hard to say.

 

sleeves are so popular because alot of well respected members endorse certain companies. Everyday people are asking should they sleeve there block for 300whp because so and so said they should install sleeves. Personally wiht a sleeved block i wouldn't settle for anything LESS than 500whp. I know the big arguement for sleeves is "yea, but how long will your stock sleeves last @ that power". But for some reason it always seems like its the sleeved block owners complaining of a bad sleeve install, sleeve sinking, blowing there motors because someone tunes them with the approach they are "indistructable" or selling/changing there setup year in and year out...At this point getting sleeves for teh reliability factor is basically tossed...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mpir3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sleeves are so popular because alot of well respected members endorse certain companies. Everyday people are asking should they sleeve there block for 300whp because so and so said they should install sleeves. Personally wiht a sleeved block i wouldn't settle for anything LESS than 500whp. I know the big arguement for sleeves is "yea, but how long will your stock sleeves last @ that power". But for some reason it always seems like its the sleeved block owners complaining of a bad sleeve install, sleeve sinking, blowing there motors because someone tunes them with the approach they are "indistructable" or selling/changing there setup year in and year out...At this point getting sleeves for teh reliability factor is basically tossed...</TD></TR></TABLE>

No its liek most other things in life. Most r&d has focused slowly and intensively on the cracking. Not what cuased the localized stress that cuased the cracking. Its all about $. they know they can sell a $500 set of sleeve charge $500 to install them make $500 and still make you happy by telling you what a great product they make. Isssue remains that when installing sleeve YOU WEAKEN THE BLOCK !.

with that said its time to consider fixing the block properly.

As i stated before. The sleeves dont crack when the engine is under boost. They crack when the engine comes out of boost and the cylinder head clamps down and distorts the cylinder wall.

in all honesty good headstuds might help more then sleeves. Then again unifying the block into a solid block with no open deck prove far mroe promisng then removing half the support for the lower end.

 

at last some people answered

my current goal is to have a daily driver between 200hp-300hp,, so I will definetly stick with stock sleeves, not even a block guard. anyway this goal will not be achieved until next year (buying bigger turbo) due to my current small small turbo TD04HL ,, but at least I've put some forged pistons and rods in the block! furthermore I dont see the point of having 500HP in a FWD as I dont plan to go to the drag to often, 300HP with street tires is plenty enough to beat almost any cars on the street. I'm not the type of guy who claims to have the most horsies in his car. what 500HP are good if you can only put 250HP on the road!?!?


anyway enough said I think you got my point, thanks for those who answered

 

why even forged pistons for that power?

edit..i take it you have a d series from that turbo?

 

I have installed forged pistons for the no-worries factor,,, like the other guy said I build it for 400HP while my goals are way under that,, leaves room for error

I have a B18B engine btw. I will get a T3/T04 next dont worry about my small sized turbo for now.