<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FwdCivicHatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The straw analogy was pretty dumb. The reason why the one straw was cooler air is because your palms were sweating when you thought you were going to prove something.</TD></TR></TABLE>

hey, maybe you can go tell the guys at road race engineering that. It's elementary in thought, but it does provide a simple example of why 2.25" to 2.5" piping size relates to velocity and retaining colder charge air temps to the amount of boost (race vs. street)....fucken noob. instead of shitting on people why don't you give us a complete breakdown on why it's so fucken important. i'm sure you know much better than all of us. soooo it's recommended? go talk to the boys at revhard.....and ask them why their transitions on street apps are the way they are....fucken noob. god H-T was soo much better a couple years ago. ok that's it won't hear anything from me again

 

lolz. The straw idea, is actually pretty close to be true.
Very good example of what I was trying to explain, but for me in longer terms. lolz.

But yep, like i said, this is FORCE INDUCTION your trying to create, not RELEASE/EXPAND induction...

 

Can't we all get along, lets meet half way and tell him to go with 2.75"

Honestly, I think it comes down to the application at hand and (which I'm not going to get into cause I don;t have a physics degree, just a BS in Comp Sci) Velocity (with the smaller pipe) versus volume (with the bigger pipe).

I think someone had a good garden hose analogy a while back - it was good. bahhhhhhh. It's busy at work today

 

I didn't say that 3" was better. I just said that your analogy was dumb for this reason: You said that the air was cooler blowing through one straw. So, we will use his 2.5" pipe to reference that one straw. Now, you said that blowing through a bunch of straws results in major pressure loss, and more heat. Although that is true, he is not going to use 10 2.5" pipes, he is only going to use a slightly larger, single pipe. And the only difference he will see is a slight one, not a major one. So, why can a slightly bigger intercooler work for the same application without hurting performance. I think the biggest thing that your missing, is that on a 600hp car, the problem is that the 2.5" pipes restrict air flow too much.

But pay attention to this, "I would use the 2.5" piping on his application" but he won't have problems with the 3" piping.

 

Can we all please cut the crap with all the juvenile name calling and attempted bashing? This is why a lot of really good people have left H-T or just don't post anymore. I'm totally open to any discussion you want to have about theory or experience or practical applications or whatever, but if all you can do is to try and start a flame war cuz you got nuthin' else, then [Uncle Sam Poster] ClubSi Wants YOU! [/Uncle Sam Poster].

I can only assume that you mean me and my calculator

It doesn't, however...

No, I haven't. Would you please show me one? In fact, on a turbo engine, I have NEVER seen a larger downpipe be the sole cause of a power loss unless it was because the step change in pipe diameter was too abrupt and caused flow problems, like this...
............._____________
_______|

_______
............|_____________

On a turbo engine the exhaust gas after the turbine blades is essentially constant flow (unlike the pulsing exhaust flow on a N/A engine) and anything, and I mean ANYTHING, that lowers backpressure or restriction downstream of the turbo, and therefore increases the pressure ratio across the turbo, will increase power and make it spool faster. I'm so confident of this that I'll make you a deal you can't refuse. If you can show me ANY case where a larger downpipe was the SOLE cause of a power drop of more than 2% (2% in order to be statistically significan't, and all adjusted as per SAE) I'll PayPal you $10. NOTE: this does not include the above mentioned step change, a fuel system that can't keep up with the increased flow, leaning out because of lack of tune for the increased flow, or changing anything else at the same time, different dyno, etc. It's got to be ONLY the larger downpipe that causes the loss, not someone's lousy tuning. If I'm right and you're wrong you don't need to pay me or do anything except maybe agree to stop the childish namecalling. So, what do you think? Is it a deal?

yes I'm familiar with the term


It's called a diffuser (&lt, at least for subsonic flow, and a nozzle is the reverse and goes from larger to smaller (&gt. At supersonic flow rates they switch and a nozzle (&lt goes from small to large, and a diffuser (&gt goes from large to small. Look at the compressor exit of your turbo after it leaves the scroll area and notice how it goes from smaller to larger? Do you think that hurts your turbo's performance, or that maybe your turbo maker didn't know what they were doing? A diffuser converts velocity into pressure, while a nozzle converts pressure into velocity. Do a google search for "diffuser" if you want to know more.

Here's the deal with gases and pressure and velocity. In a flowing gas, if you have velocity then you got it at the expense of some pressure, and if you have pressure then you got it at the expense of some velocity (or did some mechanical work), and you can readily convert the two back and forth as long as you do so smoothly. If you don't do it smoothly then you just waste energy and heat up the air. In your intake manifold the air in the runners spends 80% of its time at a standstill waiting for the valves to open. Where is your velocity now? What happened to it? It was converted into pressure as it was slowing down in the charge pipe and throttle body and intake manifold. If you had used a smaller charge pipe then you would have higher velocity air with less pressure, the extra velocity having been at the expense of pressure earlier in the system, and now being converted back into pressure again, almost exactly the same pressure that you have with the larger pipe. At WOT the charge pipe/TB/IM effectively act together as one large reservior of pressurized air and a larger pipe has more capacity to fill a cylinder from without losing pressure for the next cylinder. Once the intake valves start to open it is pressure that makes the air flow into the cylinder, not velocity, because there is no velocity in the runner to begin with. If anyone knows of any other magical force that makes the air flow in, I'm all ears.

Excellent, this is where I pull some of my best ideas from!

Calculators aren't stupid, only people who use them wrong or who can't use them at all.


Modified by tjbizzo at 4:12 PM 5/4/2004


Modified by tjbizzo at 4:14 PM 5/4/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mamaboy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i might get raped but imma take a stab at this. i think people are forgetting about velocity of the compressed air. i think you should stay with 2.25"-2.5" due to the fact that once you transition to 3" you will slow the compressed air down...which will result in the compressed air warming up and slowing the velocity of the compressed air down. i always say use the straw illustration....get a one straw and blow into it onto your hand.....then take several straws and blow it onto your hand....you can tell that the air from the single straw is colder and stronger...while the air from the several straws is slower and warmer. i wish i had some mathematical formula to illustrate this kinda stuff....but i hate math and science.....blah </TD></TR></TABLE>

The straw illustration works as you say, but not for the reasons that you think it does. If you take a single straw and blow onto your hand, the narrow high-velocity jet of air pulls a lot of ambient air along with it, which cools the average temp of the air that hits your hand down to almost ambient temp. There are many blowers based on this very principle. Look at the air pipe on your propane or natural gas stove or BBQ grill and you'll see this is how it pulls in air to burn with the gas. If you close the shutter so that only pure gas comes out of the burner, it will burn with a crappy yellow sooty flame, if at all. Now if you take a handful of straws and blow onto your hand, it's like sighing onto your hand. Mostly warm humid breath. mmmkay?

 

can you say: in your teeth!!!!

 

I'm not sure of this pertaining towards saying that the expanding air causes it to be warmer-- but if we look at the air in our i.c. pipes we see that the air is expanding because it is getting colder. So, when the air is going thru the i.c. the air expands and becomes more dense, so we will want to have bigger piping on the cold side of the i.c. piping as to accomadate the expanded air-- so it won't be a bottle-neck in the system. The lag isn't a large deal due to the calculations that were already shown-- the diameters should be bigger towards the colder side due to expansional cooling.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tjbizzo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...</TD></TR></TABLE>

we're not worthy...

and for Sohc Driver , go with the norm, which is 2-2.5 (the majority of honda tech drones [yes I am one too] are street driven and are seldom used for full race applications)

 

Dammit..I already bought it..and gosh darnett..im gonna keep it and tell you how my car runs with it and what kind of numbers it puts out. That way I would first hand learn if its a good or bad idea. Hey..worst comes to worst..I'll just buy a 2.5 chargepipe later...Im kinda curious myself as to what a 3inch chargepipe will do.

Khoi

 

And that's perfectly o.k.

Good Luck with everyhting.....

 

Uhh....not for nothing, but there's a ton of different terms used here like "charge pipe", "down pipe" "cold air intake" and a bunch of other stuff that dosen't describe what "SOHC" is talking about.

Lets presume that this person is utilizing 10psi in his car, the air velocity in a 2" "charge pipe" (which is what the person was talking about in the first place - intercooler to intake manifold) will be *185.7, with 2.25 its *146.7 with a 2.5 *118.8 and a 3" would flow *82.5ft/sec. What that's going to translate to the driver is substantially less torque. As any mongoloid can see, the 3" pipe flows over 100 less feet/sec and would result in a hell of a lot more lag than 0.0012 sec. More like ~2 sec. As a matter of fact..I put $10paypal bucks on THAT. At 10psi with those long pipes, I highly doubt that the driver will ever see a tangible increase in top-end hp

On the other hand, if this increased diamater were applied to a DOWN PIPE, it would increase torque due to less back pressure, provided the pipe weren't 7' long.

I guess as the end of the day, if "SOHC" is going to go with the 3" pipe regardless, then none of this really matters. So what if you lose the race. At least the pipe looks nice Ignorance (and BLING y0) is bliss...

 

anyone think of puttin some kind of collector on it ro make the piping shoot toa smaller size at the end? it would make the pressure higher with big pipe and a collecter then a small pipe straight through.... just a thought tho.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1316130057 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Uhh....not for nothing, but there's a ton of different terms used here like "charge pipe", "down pipe" "cold air intake" and a bunch of other stuff that dosen't describe what "SOHC" is talking about.

Lets presume that this person is utilizing 10psi in his car, the air velocity in a 2" "charge pipe" (which is what the person was talking about in the first place - intercooler to intake manifold) will be *185.7, with 2.25 its *146.7 with a 2.5 *118.8 and a 3" would flow *82.5ft/sec. What that's going to translate to the driver is substantially less torque. As any mongoloid can see, the 3" pipe flows over 100 less feet/sec and would result in a hell of a lot more lag than 0.0012 sec. More like ~2 sec. As a matter of fact..I put $10paypal bucks on THAT. At 10psi with those long pipes, I highly doubt that the driver will ever see a tangible increase in top-end hp

On the other hand, if this increased diamater were applied to a DOWN PIPE, it would increase torque due to less back pressure, provided the pipe weren't 7' long.

I guess as the end of the day, if "SOHC" is going to go with the 3" pipe regardless, then none of this really matters. So what if you lose the race. At least the pipe looks nice Ignorance (and BLING y0) is bliss... </TD></TR></TABLE>


Uhh....not for nothing, but you obviously didn't read the thread you mongoloid!!!!

He said that he had the pipes that your talking about. He said that he had part of the charge pipe(the bottom part near the IC). He asked about using a 3" CAI as the upper charge pipe. Pay attention, and pay me my $10 you idiot my paypal address is iamright@yourwrong.com.

 

American Honda:

That's a great idea with the exception of one part; At higher CFM you'll be restricting the engine from maximum hp. I'll tell ya the same thing I used to tell the SVT Focus guys when I was working on the C1SC for them: If you could create piping that could change its I.D., you'd have a monopoly on the racing world. Small pipes give more bottom end (due to higher air velocities) but large pipes give more flow at higher CFM. Compromise and/or specific not to the engine's desired powerband is key.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FwdCivicHatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Uhh....not for nothing, but you obviously didn't read the thread you mongoloid!!!!

He said that he had the pipes that your talking about. He said that he had part of the charge pipe(the bottom part near the IC). He asked about using a 3" CAI as the upper charge pipe. Pay attention, and pay me my $10 you idiot my paypal address is iamright@yourwrong.com.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Uhh...not for nothing, but you've obviously been smoking a 3" crackpipe.

You just wasted your time describing the part that I already have. As a matter of fact I even used the phrase "intercooler to intake manifold" which is exctly where this 3" pipe is going. The depressurization of the air is going to make for a serious loss of velocity which is gonna cost him torque. What do you not understand about that? I'm not saying that you (the aforementioned Mongoloid) didn't describe the correct part. I'm saying that you underestimate the actual loss of velocity. Educating you would be a lot easier if you could actually read and interpret the context. And people are supposed to be buying piping from you?!?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1316130057 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You just wasted your time describing the part that I already have. As a matter of fact I even used the phrase "intercooler to intake manifold" which is exctly where this 3" pipe is going. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Its not 3inches from intercooler to throttle body....the elbow that comes off the intercooler is 2.5 and that connects to my 3inch cold air intake.

Khoi

 

just use it. it will make no difference.


______________
thread ends here.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1316130057 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And people are supposed to be buying piping from you?!?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Who the hell said they were selling piping you idiot. I don't think that one person in the entire thread said that they were selling pipe. Anyway you still don't get what SOHC DRIVER was trying to explain. And you still don't understand that I'm not recommending the 3" pipe, I just said that he could use it if he wants, it's not going to break his engine. I'm done here.....just pay attention next time.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FwdCivicHatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I just said that he could use it if he wants, it's not going to break his engine. I'm done here.....just pay attention next time.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Of course I know its not going to break the engine, and of course i know i can use it still, I just want to know how much it will affect performance. No one has really answered that question except one person. And he busted out formulas to explain to me how much lag I would gain from the 3inch chargepipe. One thing I want to ask however, is that I see plenty of guys running 7-10psi on these huge *** intercoolers. I can't see a loss in boost pressure any more than what we see from people running huge intercoolers running moderate boost. Correct me if I am wrong guys.

Khoi

 

Depends upon the efficiency of the IC core, as I say time and time again things are relative to an individual setup/motor.

 

I would agree

 

FwdCivicHatch:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Who the hell said they were selling piping you idiot. I don't think that one person in the entire thread said that they were selling pipe.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That link in your signature seemed like it was some cheap **** that you were trying to pedal. It turned out to be something that you're apparantly quite proud of. I was wrong. But..the point on the piping still remains.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And you still don't understand that I'm not recommending the 3" pipe, I just said that he could use it if he wants, it's not going to break his engine. I'm done here.....just pay attention next time.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Wrong. You said that he'd experience 0.00012 sec worth of lag, which is absolutely false as I've already shown in a calculation that shows loss of velocity, rather loss of mass. What you measured is mass. Mass = irrelevant to lag. Velocity = direct corelation to lag. The mass of the air remains the same despite the piping size, but the velocity does not which is what I was trying to illustrate. If you'd like the formula to figure it out your self, I can gladly show you so you can do the calcs your self and see that you really had no idea what you were talking about.

SOHC:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One thing I want to ask however, is that I see plenty of guys running 7-10psi on these huge *** intercoolers. I can't see a loss in boost pressure any more than what we see from people running huge intercoolers running moderate boost. Correct me if I am wrong guys.

Khoi</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'd have to agree with FredoSP in that the efficiency means everything. I saw that you mentioned: <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I can't see a loss in boost pressure any more than what we see from people running huge intercoolers running moderate boost. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The stipulation here is that you won't lose boost pressure per-se, but you'll lose air velocity. Any waste gate isn't going to limit boost until your desired PSI anyway, so although the PSIG (PSI Gauge -meaning boost read at the boost gauge) remains the same, lots of other things have changed. Large intercoolers suffer from a characteristic known as 'pressure drop' which reffers to the air decompressing due to having to travel a longer than optimal distance. What it boils down to is that compressed air dosen't like to have to fill too much area in order to get where its going - be it length or diamater. You could have a 1" pipe and still have pressure drop to the manifold if the pipe were too long. Effectively what you're doing with a 3" diamater pipe to the intake manifold is increasing pressure drop. Of course it's not going to kill you, but you will lose a healthy amount of torque and some hp.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1316130057 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Wrong. You said that he'd experience 0.00012 sec worth of lag, which is absolutely false as I've already shown in a calculation that shows loss of velocity, rather loss of mass. What you measured is mass. Mass = irrelevant to lag. Velocity = direct corelation to lag. The mass of the air remains the same despite the piping size, but the velocity does not which is what I was trying to illustrate. If you'd like the formula to figure it out your self, I can gladly show you so you can do the calcs your self and see that you really had no idea what you were talking about.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not the one that said this you idiot, so for the last time pay attention......You must have a serious case of A.D.D.

 

LOCK this thread PLEASE! before this nonsense keeps going on

 

And this my friend is why the term KISS was invented, sometimes you guys make things so complicated. Khoi I know you bought the CAI because you though it was 2.5 and they sent you the wrong one. Not your fault, but why be lazy and not follow through on your original plan to Run a 2.5 pipe?

Keep things simple and consistent, Just sell the Pipe, and Im betting you can find a Charge pipe in the classifieds with a Bov flange already welded.

I see you have some couplers already, one thing I focused on when i made my custom piping, was to keep the diameter failry consistent because transition hoses ARE NOT CHEAP!!!! They are 3x as much as regular couplers.