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GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
GSC Turbo Cam - Gringo Thread - Source for all the GSC information you would want besides this next subject
Hello.. I've put off this thread for about 6 weeks now. I wanted to make sure I had as much if not all the information needed to officially state this next warning... DO NOT USE SPRING STYLE LMA's with GSC T1 Camshafts. *Later I'll add in a quote from theShodan as a use at your own risk valve lash with Spring LMAs** So after 2 years of saving and reading and reading I finally got the opportunity to throw a B16 head on my B18b1 block. I've been boosting for approximately 2 years and loved it. Just missed a little oomph. I went with GSC Springs / Retainers and GSC T1 camshafts as I believed them hands down the best and most appropriate camshaft for my vehicles needs. I ended up purchasing some new oem GSR LMA's but ended up receiving the spring style as the GSR style was discontinued .. This gave me pause for a day or two but after reading the advantages of using the spring style I chalked it up to good fortune. - Mind you this was earily 2017 at this point and some of the relevant information starting to appear in random build threads hadn't happened yet. Below I have an example of my camshafts after 350-400 miles of usage. Break-in was done to GSC specs (I harassed them non stop toward the end of March to ensure everything would go as planned) https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...6bc099d861.jpg Ok so, you'll note on the vtec lobes specifically a grainy damage... This freaked me out as I was doing a valve lash to ensure nothing moved around tooo much. I promptly emailed GSC that night 8pm and received an email back from Mr. Greg the following morning at 6am! The very first question was - "What LMA's do you use". - Spring Style He informed me that my experience with abnormal wear was also reported by other users. Unfortunately after he advised them to change to the hydraulic style LMA he never heard back to see if the problem was fixed... -- Couple emails later he requested I send in the camshafts. I now undersand the camshafts would specifically designed around the hydaulic "stock" lma This is around May 1st now - On May 3rd I called to see if they received the cam's and if he had any idea yet as to the damage... They needed to purchase some special polishing material and it would take a week. May 9th I received a call from Mr Greg letting me know he polished the exhaust cam to perfection but unfortunately the Intake was too severely heat damaged. He stated the damage resembled valve float. - Decided to hold off on purchasing a new intake until I received the cams back and he mailed them back - for FREE.. Refused payment for the polishing and return shipping - "I built the camshaft for the user to have fun" - I was honestly blown away by the time and money spent on a part I (however innocently) messed up. I've spent the last two weeks grinding out any semblance of a caution against spring LMA's - - After a 45 minute conversation with Greg @ GSC I did some testing between both LMA's - No binding was found. Clearance between both lma's looked exactly the same off base circle and max lift. The only difference is an assumption that it required more energy on my part to push the hydraulic lma down than the spring style - My thoughts at this time were perhaps spring load off the spring style lma is lighter until a particular lift. GSC T1's do not hit this lift - Again this is an assumption Eventually I found this thread below... A hidden message about Spring LMA caution I found this one post from theShodan If you plant to run anything like a Kelford or GSC-T1 purpose made camshaft, please do not use the spring style LMAs without accounting for tighter valve lash. Or stick to the hydraulic LMAs if you plan to use an aftermarket camshaft like I just mentioned. what one must do if using a spring style LMA is tighten the valve lash tighter as though it were at cold start (.006-.008), and not use the settings that the original card provides. But what you said regarding the decreased preloaded spring tension is reasonably accurate. I can't confirm any further because, well, I've never had an issue with mine,but had spoken with several clients that are using the camshafts. The only one with any issues were those with spring-type LMAs.. But I think the problem is a simple fix My break in procedure was 100% exactly the same minus the usage of GSR LMA's. I want to reiterate that I do not blame GSC Power Division in ANY way for this issue. I honestly used some assumptions and feel like an idiot for not asking the guys at GSC about them after the 10th phone call to go over break in and cam gear settings / tuning ... oil needed for break in ... any and everything I could think of before the install date. I've since heard from 5 members that they had similar issues with Spring style LMA's and hope they will chime in to let others know how the fixed the issue, if they fixed the issue or regrettably just moved to a new cam.. My only goal with this post is to save future GSC T1 users the hassle and trouble I've been through. I have enjoyed this camshaft for the few miles I've driven with them.. So for any future or potential buyers of the GSC T1's - Read my concerns and hopefully TheShodans recommendation of a tighter valve lash- or just use the hydraulic LMA's and never worry! I hope to have a dyno run sometime with the next couple months to see just how GREAT they've worked for me... I can hands down say that I feel a new appreciation for a dedicated cam and the low / mid range throttle response I've gained. Thanks and good luck! |
re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Thanks for this. I have a set of gsc cams ready to drop in |
re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Originally Posted by Pepe14
(Post 51652201)
Thanks for this. I have a set of gsc cams ready to drop in |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Dam do the kelford 176-T have the same problem too ??
I allready have a brand new spring type LMA. |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Originally Posted by Balor_Gr
(Post 51652550)
Dam do the kelford 176-T have the same problem too ??
I allready have a brand new spring type LMA. |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
This is very interesting and had been on my mind as well. What's also intriguing is the last time I talked to GSC about their T1 cams, the guy I talked to said he thought it was a toss-up between the spring type and the hydraulic LMA.
This very clearly makes me think only the hydraulics should be used. |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Originally Posted by Chance EG
(Post 51652855)
This is very interesting and had been on my mind as well. What's also intriguing is the last time I talked to GSC about their T1 cams, the guy I talked to said he thought it was a toss-up between the spring type and the hydraulic LMA.
This very clearly makes me think only the hydraulics should be used. |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
I don't like working with unknown variables I could not choose better combination of words.(of course im not native speaker but yeah anyway) |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
What soring seat pressure are you at? |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Originally Posted by Pepe14
(Post 51653145)
What soring seat pressure are you at? |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Originally Posted by Pepe14
(Post 51653145)
What soring seat pressure are you at? *Edited and added the information below* Side note after emailing Endyn about a product query they informed me to ditch the Greddy T-Belt I was using .. The Greddy belts transfer crank harmonics into the camshafts, so we do not recommend their use, period. |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Originally Posted by simjosh
(Post 51653719)
I'm using GSC Power Division valve springs/retainers - I had already re-done the break-in on the new intake cam before I received this advice. No abnormal wear was seen but I trust their opinion and went back to OEM belt for peace of mind. - Yet another item I failed to properly vet and spent double money on. /sigh
I thought it was just those big cams, so I built another one with the same springs, GS-R cams and an OEM belt. I checked it after about 500 miles, looked good. 1500 miles, looked good. 2600 miles, I noticed the teeth were looking a little funny. Pulled the belt off for a closer look and it was already trying to pull the teeth on that belt too. I've since been using a Gates racing belt and haven't had any funky wear, so far. But I am invested in this because theSHODAN talked me into getting the GSC T1 cams. I haven't installed them yet, but I do have the spring style LMA's. Now I'm wondering if I really need to change the LMA's out or just run a different valve lash.... |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Originally Posted by quickhondaz
(Post 51653985)
not sure if supertech springs are comparable to GSC springs, but I had a set of supertech springs and retainers in an old setup with some Toda B cams with an OEM t-belt and it stripped about 1/3 of the teeth off the belt in about 4K miles resulting in 12 bent valves.
I thought it was just those big cams, so I built another one with the same springs, GS-R cams and an OEM belt. I checked it after about 500 miles, looked good. 1500 miles, looked good. 2600 miles, I noticed the teeth were looking a little funny. Pulled the belt off for a closer look and it was already trying to pull the teeth on that belt too. I've since been using a Gates racing belt and haven't had any funky wear, so far. But I am invested in this because theSHODAN talked me into getting the GSC T1 cams. I haven't installed them yet, but I do have the spring style LMA's. Now I'm wondering if I really need to change the LMA's out or just run a different valve lash.... *Depending on the supertech springs you use.. HD I believe are 85lb seat and were an acceptable alternative to the GSC valve springs for the GSC t1's.. All my investigating basically says oem > gates blue but it also suggested for higher lift cams to use either the toda or greddy belts specially as they were designed a heck of a lot better than oem or gates. Yet they appear to cause too much harmonic's transfer. The learning experience never ends! |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Originally Posted by simjosh
(Post 51654120)
Thats all on you. I've got my opinions but I wouldn't mind hearing others share their luck trying the valve lash tightening.. What I gathered from GSC was that the use of spring lma's was a 50/50 shot. Basically they didn't have enough data to prove anything one way or the other. (assumed through conversation) . Anyone that contacted them with abnormal wear never called back after the lma change was suggested (only those with abnormal wear seemed to have spring style lma's). But that also doesn't mean others with spring style LMAs were unsuccessful in using the cam card specs either.. . Again it seems more or less like a coincidence without more information and better targeted testing - well better then I could do... GSC Power Division didn't recommend tightening the valve lash either fyi. They had no workaround besides installing the parts that were used in designing the camshaft - IE OEM original hydraulic styled lma's.
*Depending on the supertech springs you use.. HD I believe are 85lb seat and were an acceptable alternative to the GSC valve springs for the GSC t1's.. All my investigating basically says oem > gates blue but it also suggested for higher lift cams to use either the toda or greddy belts specially as they were designed a heck of a lot better than oem or gates. Yet they appear to cause too much harmonic's transfer. The learning experience never ends! Interesting. I've used nothing but Toda Racing & GReddy belts for over 15 years and never had any harmonic balance issues of any kind. I also never needed one of those belt tensioner devices either, unlike those with belies that small like the Gates blue. |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Originally Posted by TheShodan
(Post 51654326)
Interesting. I've used nothing but Toda Racing & GReddy belts for over 15 years and never had any harmonic balance issues of any kind. I also never needed one of those belt tensioner devices either, unlike those with belies that small like the Gates blue.
It's not a harmonic balancer issue per say but that the greddy/toda belt transfers harmonics from the crank into the camshafts via the belt.. That's what I got from it anyway. Sorry if I said something that implies otherwise. I took it to mean the material used is a little too tough and cannot absorb and dissipate the harmonics as easily as an oem belt. |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Originally Posted by simjosh
(Post 51654344)
Yes I've dug those posts up.
It's not a harmonic balancer issue per say but that the greddy/toda belt transfers harmonics from the crank into the camshafts via the belt.. That's what I got from it anyway. Sorry if I said something that implies otherwise. I took it to mean the material used is a little too tough and cannot absorb and dissipate the harmonics as easily as an oem belt. |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
I have a hard time beliveing that the valve lash is the cause to the ware pictured.. The LMA binding or bottoming out would be my first guess.. Also a to high vtec point is putting alot of stress on the LMA:s . Combined with a larger cam profile might even cause the vtec rocker to hit the reteiners if you are out of v tec at a too high rpm. I have a little rule when tuning a b series and that is not going over 6000 rpm in non vtec. Ones the cam has been hurt it is often just a matter of time before the ware accelerates..
It is also at least 2 versions of hydralic LMA. I think it is no more then that. The ITR ones has a bigger surface area to accomidate higher lifts. A too high lift will cause the vtec rocker to slide of a regular b series hydralic LMA |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Originally Posted by The sweed
(Post 51655444)
I have a hard time beliveing that the valve lash is the cause to the ware pictured.. The LMA binding or bottoming out would be my first guess.. Also a to high vtec point is putting alot of stress on the LMA:s . Combined with a larger cam profile might even cause the vtec rocker to hit the reteiners if you are out of v tec at a too high rpm. I have a little rule when tuning a b series and that is not going over 6000 rpm in non vtec. Ones the cam has been hurt it is often just a matter of time before the ware accelerates..
It is also at least 2 versions of hydralic LMA. I think it is no more then that. The ITR ones has a bigger surface area to accomidate higher lifts. A too high lift will cause the vtec rocker to slide of a regular b series hydralic LMA Unfortunately I'm not educated enough to have any specific proof as to what changes between the lma design that affects the way gsc created the cam profile. Believe me, I was 100% ready to call BS on spring lma causing this issue. Took me a couple weeks before I started seeing it their way (gsc). Add that to the fact 5-6 ht members pm'd the exact same experience with only one thing in common (spring lma). The lash setting TheShodan recommends.. Eh I didn't try that... I just went with used gsr lma's as Greg at GSC was confident that the issue would go away with the proper LMA. The only thing that also leads me to believe the lma issue is that the new spring lma doesn't replace the itr heads lma... Is this because the itr cams have higher lift? Different duration? Beefier valve springs? Different base lobe? There had to be a reason Honda upgraded the lma for all the other engines minus the itr's right? |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Originally Posted by simjosh
(Post 51655458)
The lash setting TheShodan recommends.. Eh I didn't try that... I just went with used gsr lma's as Greg at GSC was confident that the issue would go away with the proper LMA.
The only thing that also leads me to believe the lma issue is that the new spring lma doesn't replace the itr heads lma... Is this because the itr cams have higher lift? Different duration? Beefier valve springs? Different base lobe? There had to be a reason Honda upgraded the lma for all the other engines minus the itr's right? |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Omg finally someone that has had the same problem as me. I also run the gsc t1 cams with all ferrea components valves retainers locks and 100lb dual springs. I also have science of speed spring style lmas. I never had vtec lock pins
this is after 1000 miles. On good valvoline vr1 oil. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...99c334387c.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...b4762470a5.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...ce1d92aa09.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...e145c3914c.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...743cdac8bf.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...f537956fc7.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...966760a113.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...cd1be798f4.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...4b801380ec.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-t...03744fdb4b.jpg |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
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Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
As far as I can see the lash has nothing to do with this.. If it would the cam would look more the same all around.. I think that something happens that makes the LMA not to be able to handle the lift and there are some kind of binding.. Maybe the spring bends with RPM.. I know crower had problems with harmonics in ther cam design that made their cam prone to crack and brake. They handled it by changeing their cam lobe design. This is around 15 years ago on b series motors.
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Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Originally Posted by The sweed
(Post 51655957)
As far as I can see the lash has nothing to do with this.. If it would the cam would look more the same all around.. I think that something happens that makes the LMA not to be able to handle the lift and there are some kind of binding.. Maybe the spring bends with RPM.. I know crower had problems with harmonics in ther cam design that made their cam prone to crack and brake. They handled it by changeing their cam lobe design. This is around 15 years ago on b series motors.
- So the spring LMA has plenty of room before bind on the T1 vtec lobe T1 lift would be around 0.304in (.472 including rocker arm ratio). Rockets GSR / ITR comparison Now in rockets comparison ... He (I assume) only measures bind pressure @ 56lbs.. No max lift unfotunately The Spring LMA binds imo wayyyyy after the hydraulic.. I need to rig up a spring tester as I believe pressures between hydraulic and spring lma at 0.335 lift would only be 35-40lbs (spring LMA lift between 1.368 -1.342) - I think it would be closer to 40-45lb's on a hydraulic. (assumption again) My understanding from Greg at GSC was that the LMA would either A) be binding and putting abnormal pressure on the vtec lobe - lifting up on the cam and relieving some pressure on the primary / secondary lobes... OR B) When the camshafts coming around the ramp angle is causing separation between the cam / rocker which causes the camshaft vtec lobe to slap the rocker arm. Either option is in Vtec or OUT of vtec as damage wouldn't necessarily occur just in vtec. I'm more on option B as the culprit IF the spring rates are drastically different between a hydraulic vs spring LMA - up to the max lift on the T1 camshaft. I'm still unsure WHY adjusting valve lash truly affects the Vtec lobe. - Lash only adjusts the outside rocker arms and does nothing for the middle rocker until Vtec is engaged. So until Vtec engages.... - - The middle rocker is stuck with whatever "seat" pressure it's at. Not only that but you cannot "preload" the middle rocker by moving the lash on the outside rockers tighter at cold... So why does lash play such a big role on the middle rocker/vtec lobe? |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Originally Posted by Pullig
(Post 51655481)
I've recently experienced a related event with another person's build. Recently, we've installed GSC T1 camshafts in a head using Hydraulic LMAs, and we've found that the rockers are literally "slapping" at random during cold start. What's it's telling me (and validated by some other professionals) is that the Hydraulic LMAs were so old in this head (We found later it's a B17 GS-R head), that the spring inside the cylinder of the LMA has compressed itself to a point where it has very little Spring "preload" causing the rocker to slap and causing a small bit of damage to the rocker rod. But the Spring Style LMAs from most companies that we're seeing, (Even Science of Speed) there is too much spring preload on the VTEC rocker that it's causing abnormal wear on the higher lobe itself. The T1 camshaft isn't that aggressive, but aggressive enough to where this could present a problem to certain camshafts. Before you jump onto a "well, it's the materials GSC is using" negative-nancy bandwagon, I don't think that's the case here as confirmed by Greg@GSC with the hardening of their camshafts, or their materials, (The 6-series are Chill-cast iron like any Skunk2 Camshaft, while the 7-Series is a hardened billet camshaft). So, when time allows, I'll be continuing my extensive meetings and talks with these professionals (Ferrea is my next call, I don't e-mail or DM companies and professionals, nor do I Google search.. It's a waste of time on this level) . Good condition Hydraulic LMAs seem to have that "sweet spot" of spring preload to the rockers for GSC camshaft lobes; I can personally attest to this, as I've inspected my camshafts and they are in perfect order with my orginal Hydraulic LMAs. But I consider myself an outlier in the study (I'm the original owner of all my B-series hondas with their cylinder heads, and have taken extremely good care of them... meaning, conservative rev limits, good ZDDP content oil at all times, proper valve lash intervals, etc).. so I think that the only area my example is good for is a control group for a comparison of the others. That's it. I can't answer for Myles, but I may ask him myself at a later date. I think the heart of the matter is the spring tension "preload" of the Hydaulic LMAs, vs. the Spring loaded ones. The questions are, 1) What is the exact spring load tension on the good condition LMAs, 2) What methodology is best for the data to be collected, 3) How do we compare it to Supertech, Inline Four, Science Of Speed, and Skunk2 Spring style LMAs? 4) Is there a way to duplicate the "sweet" spot of the optimal spring preload of the original LMAs without delving too deep into the pocketbook? Does that involve taking a spring style LMA and somehow lowering spring-tension "preload", or taking a hydaulic LMA and somehow modifying it to gain its previous optimal preload rate? This isn't going to be a quick response at all, so, please don't just make this a thread only showing versions of your GSC camshafts with Spring Style LMAs, and create a finger-pointing contest; I'm working on some solutions, as I think this can be applied to many other companies other than just GSC, that have specific camshafts that presume some pretty normal parts components of the very engines they're marketing to. They just may not be aware of the changes that consumers are making on heads that are easily 18-25 years of age. That factor must be accounted for. And people. If you don't have the camshafts, that's ok.. There's no reason to get ugly with counter-arguments regarding other company camshafts and why you'll "always stay stock". That's cool and all, but has no relevance on this particular thread. So, chill, ok? ;) I'll keep people updated as I continue this.. |
Re: GSC T1 and the usage of Spring Style LMA's *PLEASE NOTE BEFORE INSTALLING*
Originally Posted by TheShodan
(Post 51656148)
1) What is the exact spring load tension on the good condition LMAs,
2) What methodology is best for the data to be collected, 3) How do we compare it to Supertech, Inline Four, Science Of Speed, and Skunk2 Spring style LMAs? 4) Is there a way to duplicate the "sweet" spot of the optimal spring preload of the original LMAs without delving too deep into the pocketbook? Does that involve taking a spring style LMA and somehow lowering spring-tension "preload", or taking a hydaulic LMA and somehow modifying it to gain its previous optimal preload rate? This isn't going to be a quick response at all, so, please don't just make this a thread only showing versions of your GSC camshafts with Spring Style LMAs, and create a finger-pointing contest; I'm working on some solutions, as I think this can be applied to many other companies other than just GSC, that have specific camshafts that presume some pretty normal parts components of the very engines they're marketing to. They just may not be aware of the changes that consumers are making on heads that are easily 18-25 years of age. That factor must be accounted for. And people. If you don't have the camshafts, that's ok.. There's no reason to get ugly with counter-arguments regarding other company camshafts and why you'll "always stay stock". That's cool and all, but has no relevance on this particular thread. So, chill, ok? ;) I'll keep people updated as I continue this.. 1) Measure spring travel as in the previous posted oem/sk2/sos spring chart VS hydraulic lma (Do B16 along with GSR / ITRs? or don't worry about the B16 since they potentially have too small of a pad) 2) load CAM into a head using dial gauges to measure the "preload" applied from base circle - distance will correlate with previous chart -how much would this change between heads?? (At this point would measuring ALL styles be beneficial or 2 of each style..?) 3) Continue measurements 0.1 inch increments +side -side of nose? 4) ? What else would be beneficial? I'm not a mechanical engineer and I'm sure there's a ton of information behind camshaft development that may make a difference. - -- I got OEM Spring / GSR / B16 LMAs - If I can make a spring checker I can validate my findings per OneBadTurboCRV's on the oem spring chart. But everything else would be subjective to age as the B16's were original 92 lma's and the Gsr's came from a 97 (supposedly). - So right..., where's the sweet spot or where does that spot change? - That might take a known "Bad" hydraulic LMA to measure the difference. ? -I'll eventually also purchase some new ITR LMA's as a preventive measure since my current LMA's are in an unknown condition / lifespan.. - That would give a new vs old hydraulic lma comparison between "good" preloads.. |
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