80884

Ok, so I finally got this car running. Went to the dyno to get it tuned on pumps gas. Ended up with this engine and a bad turbo. The tuning that was being done was part throttle starting from low rpms and working our way up. Made it up to tuning around 8000rpm and this is when things went bad. I was operating the car, my friend was with the tuner and the tuner well, obviously was tuning. AEM ems by the way. All was going well on my end, doing what I was told operating the car. When we got to around 8000 rpm part throttle the whole way up to 8000 rpm, I noticed my temp gauge took a very radical climb to the hot area. I saw it was going up and let out of the throttle, relayed the info to the tuner and shut the car off. As I shut the car off smoke billowed out of the breathers in the block (the two ports on the back, and the factory pcv nipple). The car definatly overheated. It happened very fast.
Continuing on...The tuner said I was at about 75% of the fuel being able to be supplied. Thats kind of funny. A1000 pump, plumbed and wired properly, 95lb precision injectors, 13109 aeromotive regulator.
Now I'm trying to figure out exactly what happened here. From what it looks like to me it got too hot (duh). I wanted to pass some pictures along and hopefully get some good responce on what looks to have happened. I can provide an AEM map that was on the car when it went if that will help anyone to help me.
Again, I'm not posting here to get an answer to what went wrong, I'm trying to get that figured out on my end as I make this thread. It's nice to get other opinions from people other than the people who have had a hand on the car and don't want to take any blame for what happened. I don't care who's fault it was or why it went, I just want to know what happened so I can make sure it doesn't happen again.
Here are some pics...

CYL 1 Piston

other side

top


CYL 2 Piston

other side

top


CYL 3 Piston

other side

top


CYL 4 Piston

other side

top


Cylinder walls 1-2 backside with flash

without flash


Cylinder walls 3-4 backside with flash

without flash


Cylinder walls 1-2 front side with flash

without flash


Cylinder walls 3-4 frontside with flash

without flash


Side view


Cylinder head 1-2


Cylinder head 3-4


Cylinder 3 close - some of the specels are lint from a rag, the specs on the valve are aluminum. Hard to see in theis pic.


New turbo, no boost was ever made, oil supply was good, drain was good. Remember, this car never made any boost!


Any info you have would be great espesially if you know what your talking about. Thanks in advance.

A.E Motoring

iTrader: (1)

too lean??, what do the plugs look like? could be oil starvation? oil press gauge?

boosted k20

if the fuel was at 75% duty cycle then u must have had some fuel issues.

also looks like u have some oil prssure issues

b16a4

that sucks

80884

Plugs showed that it was too lean. I forgot to take pics of them, I will do that tomorrow. Plugs also had speckels on them (piston pieces is my guess)

Oil pressure was fine, rod and main bearings are fine, no damage to head. Oil pressure gauge was outside of the car but did not show any pressure problems.

80884

**posted wrong map**


Modified by 80884 at 9:51 PM 5/20/2007

Fitti

2 of your blades on the left side of the turbo look as if you injested something through it as well.

The tops of the pistons looks like the detonation.

Were the spark plugs cracked or broken?

non-VTEC

looks like something got real hot real fast.......you tuner needs to check out his tune in the EMS. and you need to re-check all your fuel system components. somthing isnt right.

also who assembled the bottom end? when the pistons score the cylinders on the piston pin side's it's usually an indication of the ring gaps being to tight.......or it can just be from the cylinder temps........

1FSTHATCH

After looking through the map bobby i seen alot of things i really didnt like..One, was 26 degrees of timing in the motor..I only run around 20 degrees on c16 so this could be a big issue to why it looks like alot of heat was in the motor..What fuel was in the car during this time..Reguardless, after seeing some of the photos as well my theory would be detonation..As bad as the cylinders are scored and the and the black depth on the pistons there two big signs..Espcially with AEM not using the knock sensor you wouldnt have noticed unless you were listening for it..These could be build issues as well..Clearences on the rings could have been set alittle too tight but that still only explains alittle of the scoring..What did the bearings look like??Regudless, even the fuel map looked terrible..I really wouldnt take **** back to this guy..Let him do his own thing..On the turbo too, i have no clue best thing you could do is put a guage inline and see what oil pressure your getting before you restart the car..Its possible from it sitting over time something went defective with it..

xxxmikenicexxx

I would say its possible too that PTW clearance could be a factor...its happened to me. That and running a bit lean could def cause that carnage...just my .02

Mykizism

that sucks, was the base timing ever sync'd with the ems and checked with a light prior to the tuning session?

Jared

post a pic of the ignition map.

alpha

Was the ignition timing synched? Verified in the upper RPM's? If you had a chance to look what did oil pressure look like? Have a picture of the fuel pump mounted? I assume oil level was good?

seen4ever

definately looks like detonation, if the duty cycle was 75%, something was seriously wrong in the fuel system if this was just up to 8k to 0 vacuum.

were the correct injectors selected in the EMS? what A/F was he going for at part trottle at 8k? For that point, why the hell were you tuning part trottle up to 8k? maybe its me, but I never tune part trottle up to 8k, i'll go up to 6k, then WOT for the rest and file it in appropriately in between, but that's alot of pressure on a car to attempt to tune that in a mild a/f range.

tony1

Do you have any datalogs? Send me the aem cal, i'll look over it.

It's very odd that the pistons contacted the wall on the sides, that usually happens on the thrust sides.

What pistons? What piston to wall clearance was the motor setup at?

D@nnY

who bored and honed the motor? I hope you didnt let a redneck hole in the wall shop do it.

80884

Spark plugs were not cracked or broken but did look way too lean.

Bottom end was originally assembled by importbuilders, I ended up changing the rods out before the engine was together. Decided to go from the eagles that were in it to manley rods. I assumed the PTW clearence was ok seeing as how a shop did it. After dealing with them and also deal with importbuilders on another situation I can't put any trust in them at all.

Thanks James, 99% of this whole situation is terrible. 93 octane in the car.

We synced the timing before we went to the dyno and had the car idling, when we go their the tuner didn't like the way we made it idle and decided to try to make his own map, which I then find out he starts out with a reg civic base map and not even the turbo base map. Did he need to sync the timing after he changed the map? If so then he didn't. Unless he guessed

Oil level was good.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by seen4ever &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">were the correct injectors selected in the EMS? what A/F was he going for at part trottle at 8k? For that point, why the hell were you tuning part trottle up to 8k? maybe its me, but I never tune part trottle up to 8k, i'll go up to 6k, then WOT for the rest and file it in appropriately in between, but that's alot of pressure on a car to attempt to tune that in a mild a/f range.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I am wondering if I would have been better off trying to learn how to tune the car myself, pretty much everything this guy did makes no sence. The map is all messed up after looking at some of the stuff.

No datalogs that I can find. I'll send you the cal, try not to laugh too hard.
Wiseco pistons, I can not answer what it was set up at. Is there a way to check it now even tho the pistons are messed up? maybe mic the pistons and the cylinderwalls in a good spot? compare the two?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D@nnY &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">who bored and honed the motor? I hope you didnt let a redneck hole in the wall shop do it.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Importbuilders (was originally built a few years ago), I hope I didn't either.

Ign map:
**posted wrong map**

My main thing now is to figure out exactly what went wrong so I can make sure it doesn't happen next time. Should I expect a problem in the fuel system or could the tuner have messed up that bad and I didn't even have a fuel problem? I'm going to have the pump tested, hopefully it decided to take a crap and would explain alot.


Modified by 80884 at 9:52 PM 5/20/2007

Jared

the timing needs to be resynced every time a new map is loaded.

Jared

also, this is a turbo motor, but your posted maps dont have positive pressure even shown

tony1

That map is a COMPLETELY stock 1010 map. Open it and go to file &gt;&gt; compare &gt;&gt; 1010 civic/integra.

That's not the map that your car was running on....

Civicman86

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jared &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">also, this is a turbo motor, but your posted maps dont have positive pressure even shown</TD></TR></TABLE>

This stuck out to me before anything else. Wouldn't a map with no positive pressure go straight lean when it tried to go into boost?

80884

This is what was in the aem the day the car went. Unless he didn't save any of his changes. I don't know enough about this stuff to know how to tell.

If I hook up to the aem now it will auto load what map is on the aem now right? Could he have made changes and somehow not saved it to the aem?

HYBRID_H@TCH

no, once he loads a new cal its in the ems..if he makes changes and doesnt save them then they will be lost but the cal will remain at what he uploaded to it..

you got hosed by your tuner.

alpha

As other's have said it's a startup calibration for a 30-1010 box. That's it. The Ignition Synch didn't even change. I would go connect to the AEM EMS and double check what's on the box

80884

trying to connect, not having any luck. just keeps flashing ecu offline.