... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? ( long )
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... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? ( long )
... first, this will be for a daily driven street car that will see some track time, not an all out race car... with that being said, i'd like to know what everyone's (engine builders preferred - earl, viren, st00pid, motormatrix, tony, arturbo, geoff, and others) thoughts are on a good break-in process after an engine rebuild...
... i searched through the archives and found two basic methods:
1) easy break-in
http://www.theoldone.com/artic....html
2) hard break-in
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
... i was also wondering when would be the best time to do a first oil change... while seaching, i noticed many different opinions... ranging from 30 miles all the way to 1000 miles...
... and lastly, what oil does everyone recommend for both during and after the break-in process?... from searching, i know that i should use a honda filter with 30w oil for the break-in (NOT synthetic)... any suggestions on what brand?... and what about after the break-in?... will synthetic be alright?... what brand?...
... sorry it was so long... i just wanna make sure i do this right the first time... so i dont have to go through this again... "do it right, or do it twice"... anyways, thanks for taking the time to read...
------------------------ c l i f f n o t e s ------------------------
- what break-in process, easy or hard? why?
- when to do first oil change?
- what oil to use for break-in? daily use?
... i searched through the archives and found two basic methods:
1) easy break-in
http://www.theoldone.com/artic....html
2) hard break-in
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
... i was also wondering when would be the best time to do a first oil change... while seaching, i noticed many different opinions... ranging from 30 miles all the way to 1000 miles...
... and lastly, what oil does everyone recommend for both during and after the break-in process?... from searching, i know that i should use a honda filter with 30w oil for the break-in (NOT synthetic)... any suggestions on what brand?... and what about after the break-in?... will synthetic be alright?... what brand?...
... sorry it was so long... i just wanna make sure i do this right the first time... so i dont have to go through this again... "do it right, or do it twice"... anyways, thanks for taking the time to read...
------------------------ c l i f f n o t e s ------------------------
- what break-in process, easy or hard? why?
- when to do first oil change?
- what oil to use for break-in? daily use?
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From: bay area/socal, CA, USA
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (1.8T_EG)
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From: Jacksonville, Fl
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (accordfreak)
Well you always want to change oil very early in the break-in process so that if anything was left in the motor during the rebuild (shavings, dust, etc.) you get it out of there before it can do any damage. Secondly, during the break-in you should NOT use synthetic oil because the rings wont seat properly. From what people have told me synthetic oil is TOO good for break in. When I broke in my motor I drove it normally for about 500 miles and then did a compression check and considered it broken in. I also let it idle for about a half hour before I drove it. You dont have to drive like a granny, but dont beat on it either. Thats what worked for me although everyone has their own way of doing it.....
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From: Marietta, GA, USA
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (genop)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by genop »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well you always want to change oil very early in the break-in process so that if anything was left in the motor during the rebuild (shavings, dust, etc.) you get it out of there before it can do any damage. Secondly, during the break-in you should NOT use synthetic oil because the rings wont seat properly. From what people have told me synthetic oil is TOO good for break in. When I broke in my motor I drove it normally for about 500 miles and then did a compression check and considered it broken in. I also let it idle for about a half hour before I drove it. You dont have to drive like a granny, but dont beat on it either. Thats what worked for me although everyone has their own way of doing it.....</TD></TR></TABLE>
I did the same thing...
I did the same thing...
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From: manakin sabot, va, us
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (MordecaiPSI)
i had about 100miles on my motor when i took it to the dyno and dont have but about 400miles on it now 
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From: Where Geos Go Fast, 95355
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (DLB1994)
This is such a controversial topic it is hard to post on the subject. But it boils down to this.
Some people recommend breaking it in easy.
Some people recommend breaking it in hard.
Some people agree with breaking it in easy.
Some people agree with breaking it in hard.
Most, if not almost all people who rebuild and run "race" type or high performance engines give it a fairly rough break in.
I've been trying to develop how i think best to break in an engine from reading all over the internet, and see how everybody breaks in their engine.
So, here is so far what i belive to be the "optimal" break in process based on personal experience, and the experiences of friends, and many others who break in engines.
A local race/machine shop/car repair shop has their own personal engine dyno. I'm friends with the owners son, and have had many tours of the shop, and seen engines that have rolled through their hands.
All the expensive race engines are broken in on they Engine Dyno. This is pretty much how they break them in:
Warm the engine up to full operating temperature, and check for proper fuel, oil and coolant flow/pressure.
Once at full operating temperature, they slowly begin the breakin bringing the RPMS from idle up to 3-4k or so under moderate throttling. They do this 3-5 times.
Then they do the same thing, but up to 5-6k moderate throttle setting.
then from here, they dyno the engine, and continue to let the engine make pulls untill it stops making more power (typically each pull makes a % more power because of the rings seating)
I have friends that have had built motors, some of them have broken them in easy, some have broken them in more vigeriously.
From what i observe, friends that break their engine in easy, their oil turns black very quickly, indicating to me that there isn't good ring seat.
My personal engine i broke in very hard, but making sure to take the proper precautions, i had the benefit of having a head that already had some miles on it, so it was already broken in to a degree.
Here are some points that i feel are important for any engine breakin based on what i've learned from others, and experienced personally.
1.) Before starting the engine, remove the spark plugs, and turn over the engine untill full cranking oil pressure is maintained for 5-10 seconds. Reinstall plugs.
2.) DO NOT move the engine untill it is at full operating temperature. Keep at High idle (1000-1500 RPMS)
3.) When the engine is warm, begin the breakin process, find an area away from public (especially if the car is high HP/fast etc.)
4.) Go through the first 3 Gears, light to moderate throttle shifting at 4k RPMS, Do this 3-4 times, and after third gear, let the engine bring the revs down low again (do not push the clutch in and use the breaks!) to about 2k.
5.) Continue using gears 1-3 same throttle settings, shifting at 5k, and then once at 5k in 3rd let the engine bring the revs down same as #4
6.) Continue steps like 4 and 5 bringing the revolutions up 1,000 RPMS untill you've done it at redline.
7.) now here is the fun part, accelerate through gears 1-4 (or just to 3 if you can't go that fast) at FULL throttle, shifting at redline. Once hitting top gear, let the engine bring the revvs down to 2-3K. Do this 2-3 times.
8.) Drive immideately home, shut off the engine, let it cool down overnight before starting the engine again. This should have taken you anywhere from 15-30 miles or so.
9.) Change the oil and filter. Re-torque your head studs if necessary, and check for any loose hoses/vac lines/connections etc that may have come undone from yeesterdays work.
10.) Congrats! The most important part of the break in process is done, the seating of the rings!
11.) From here it is' pretty easy to continue the rest of the break in. Just remember to always warm up the engine before moving the car anywhere (full operating temp) Keep varying RPMS, avoid Freeway driving, and if you have to, vary your gears, and your cars speed.
12.) Change the oil and filter once you've driven 500 miles. Then again at 1,000 Miles. This to me is important part of the steps. Change your oil again at 3,000 miles, and now you can (and i do recommend) changing over to full synthetic oil.
Now this to me is probably one of the most optimum break in processes, based on what i've learned.
As for breaking in with or without boost. DEFINATELY with boost if you can do it. Boost aids in ring seating by increasing cylinder pressures. More cylinder pressures means more ring seat pressure because of the cyl pressures push the rings against the cylinder walls. (important for break in!!) I would break in the engine with light to moderate boost. (5-15 PSI)
And as for the oil changes. Based on fact, and some of my thinking, the first oil change after the "inital" break in is very VERY important, because the oil filter will have trapped the largest particles, and a lot of small peices of metal that have come off various surfaces in the engine.
After that, the metal off the engine is reduced significantly, as the engine is "mostly broken in" but there will still be shavings that will be moving around your engine, most all of them will be picked up by your oil filter, and an amount of small shavings will still be floating around your engine bay, in my eyes, theese "small particles" can worm their way into some of the tighter clearances of the engine, but are small enough to fit into the "protective layer" that oil provides bearings with, which means that it will actually aid in the break in process by taking up a certain amount of the oil clearance, allowing the engine and rotating parts to seat very well.
Whew!
Remember this is MY OPINION Based on MY EXPERIENCES, and what i have read over the internet, and from what friends have experienced. As i've stated at the beginning, this is a very controversial subject, and the "best" breakin process, is determined by you, and the information you gather and decide for from yourself.
Typically, older gentlemen, who have been building engines for years, tend to stick with the way they build and break in engines, because it has worked for them in the past, and it still works for them. Of course, there are many knowledgeable older guys (the most knowledgable IMO) But technology is constantly improving, and the best way is not always the "tried and true" It will work, because it has based on experience, but it may not be the BEST way to do it. I feel this is especially true when it comes engine break in. Most modern shops of today can machine engines into MUCH tighter specs than before, and the parts for assembly are also machined much more accuratly, on modern machinery, that is computer controlled and cut.
so you have
1.) Better parts
2.) Better machining
3.) More accurate clearances
Which to me = More power!!
I hope this helps you out, and i'm VERY open on this subject, i'm always trying to learn a new and better way to do something, and if you have information to provide, let me read it, please!!
Good luck with your break in project. i hope you make the correct decision, and feel good about it.
Brad
Some people recommend breaking it in easy.
Some people recommend breaking it in hard.
Some people agree with breaking it in easy.
Some people agree with breaking it in hard.
Most, if not almost all people who rebuild and run "race" type or high performance engines give it a fairly rough break in.
I've been trying to develop how i think best to break in an engine from reading all over the internet, and see how everybody breaks in their engine.
So, here is so far what i belive to be the "optimal" break in process based on personal experience, and the experiences of friends, and many others who break in engines.
A local race/machine shop/car repair shop has their own personal engine dyno. I'm friends with the owners son, and have had many tours of the shop, and seen engines that have rolled through their hands.
All the expensive race engines are broken in on they Engine Dyno. This is pretty much how they break them in:
Warm the engine up to full operating temperature, and check for proper fuel, oil and coolant flow/pressure.
Once at full operating temperature, they slowly begin the breakin bringing the RPMS from idle up to 3-4k or so under moderate throttling. They do this 3-5 times.
Then they do the same thing, but up to 5-6k moderate throttle setting.
then from here, they dyno the engine, and continue to let the engine make pulls untill it stops making more power (typically each pull makes a % more power because of the rings seating)
I have friends that have had built motors, some of them have broken them in easy, some have broken them in more vigeriously.
From what i observe, friends that break their engine in easy, their oil turns black very quickly, indicating to me that there isn't good ring seat.
My personal engine i broke in very hard, but making sure to take the proper precautions, i had the benefit of having a head that already had some miles on it, so it was already broken in to a degree.
Here are some points that i feel are important for any engine breakin based on what i've learned from others, and experienced personally.
1.) Before starting the engine, remove the spark plugs, and turn over the engine untill full cranking oil pressure is maintained for 5-10 seconds. Reinstall plugs.
2.) DO NOT move the engine untill it is at full operating temperature. Keep at High idle (1000-1500 RPMS)
3.) When the engine is warm, begin the breakin process, find an area away from public (especially if the car is high HP/fast etc.)
4.) Go through the first 3 Gears, light to moderate throttle shifting at 4k RPMS, Do this 3-4 times, and after third gear, let the engine bring the revs down low again (do not push the clutch in and use the breaks!) to about 2k.
5.) Continue using gears 1-3 same throttle settings, shifting at 5k, and then once at 5k in 3rd let the engine bring the revs down same as #4
6.) Continue steps like 4 and 5 bringing the revolutions up 1,000 RPMS untill you've done it at redline.
7.) now here is the fun part, accelerate through gears 1-4 (or just to 3 if you can't go that fast) at FULL throttle, shifting at redline. Once hitting top gear, let the engine bring the revvs down to 2-3K. Do this 2-3 times.
8.) Drive immideately home, shut off the engine, let it cool down overnight before starting the engine again. This should have taken you anywhere from 15-30 miles or so.
9.) Change the oil and filter. Re-torque your head studs if necessary, and check for any loose hoses/vac lines/connections etc that may have come undone from yeesterdays work.
10.) Congrats! The most important part of the break in process is done, the seating of the rings!
11.) From here it is' pretty easy to continue the rest of the break in. Just remember to always warm up the engine before moving the car anywhere (full operating temp) Keep varying RPMS, avoid Freeway driving, and if you have to, vary your gears, and your cars speed.
12.) Change the oil and filter once you've driven 500 miles. Then again at 1,000 Miles. This to me is important part of the steps. Change your oil again at 3,000 miles, and now you can (and i do recommend) changing over to full synthetic oil.
Now this to me is probably one of the most optimum break in processes, based on what i've learned.
As for breaking in with or without boost. DEFINATELY with boost if you can do it. Boost aids in ring seating by increasing cylinder pressures. More cylinder pressures means more ring seat pressure because of the cyl pressures push the rings against the cylinder walls. (important for break in!!) I would break in the engine with light to moderate boost. (5-15 PSI)
And as for the oil changes. Based on fact, and some of my thinking, the first oil change after the "inital" break in is very VERY important, because the oil filter will have trapped the largest particles, and a lot of small peices of metal that have come off various surfaces in the engine.
After that, the metal off the engine is reduced significantly, as the engine is "mostly broken in" but there will still be shavings that will be moving around your engine, most all of them will be picked up by your oil filter, and an amount of small shavings will still be floating around your engine bay, in my eyes, theese "small particles" can worm their way into some of the tighter clearances of the engine, but are small enough to fit into the "protective layer" that oil provides bearings with, which means that it will actually aid in the break in process by taking up a certain amount of the oil clearance, allowing the engine and rotating parts to seat very well.
Whew!
Remember this is MY OPINION Based on MY EXPERIENCES, and what i have read over the internet, and from what friends have experienced. As i've stated at the beginning, this is a very controversial subject, and the "best" breakin process, is determined by you, and the information you gather and decide for from yourself.
Typically, older gentlemen, who have been building engines for years, tend to stick with the way they build and break in engines, because it has worked for them in the past, and it still works for them. Of course, there are many knowledgeable older guys (the most knowledgable IMO) But technology is constantly improving, and the best way is not always the "tried and true" It will work, because it has based on experience, but it may not be the BEST way to do it. I feel this is especially true when it comes engine break in. Most modern shops of today can machine engines into MUCH tighter specs than before, and the parts for assembly are also machined much more accuratly, on modern machinery, that is computer controlled and cut.
so you have
1.) Better parts
2.) Better machining
3.) More accurate clearances
Which to me = More power!!
I hope this helps you out, and i'm VERY open on this subject, i'm always trying to learn a new and better way to do something, and if you have information to provide, let me read it, please!!
Good luck with your break in project. i hope you make the correct decision, and feel good about it.
Brad
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Anywhere but here, MI, USA
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (lazerus)
Zzzz......Zzzzz oh oh wha wha, oh ur done. I'm kidding man. Lazerus' break in procedure is right on the money, word for word for word for......... all those damn words. Soft breakins will never seat your rings properly, the first 20-30 miles you put on your car are the most important. If you screw up, u gotta hone those walls and do it again. So do it right the first time
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 7,810
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From: Yokohama, Japan, Japan
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (lazerus)
Well I am breaking my engine now, and so this is of interest to me as well. As far as how I am doing it...well my mechanic never really told me how I should do it...he just advised that I don't rev it too high for a while. And of course, since I have endyn's, I got the little flyer from Larry telling me how I should break-in my engine.
Having said that, I have chosen to break-in my engine "medium" for a lack of better terms. I only revved to 3500 for the first 100 miles, but I revved it HARD and did a few decelarations with that. And about every 100kms, I raise the rev limiter 500rpms or more.
I am at about 550 miles into the break-in now and am revving very hard to about 5000rpms and boosting .45BAR. There been a definate change in performance in the last few days of operation....BIG power at part throttle to 5000rrms and starts spooling at only 1500rpms....fullly boosting at 3500rpms!
This is better performance than from when I had 11:1 CR on stock pistons.
I have decided to continue with this medium break in untill about 1000km and then have it tuned.
Having said that, I have chosen to break-in my engine "medium" for a lack of better terms. I only revved to 3500 for the first 100 miles, but I revved it HARD and did a few decelarations with that. And about every 100kms, I raise the rev limiter 500rpms or more.
I am at about 550 miles into the break-in now and am revving very hard to about 5000rpms and boosting .45BAR. There been a definate change in performance in the last few days of operation....BIG power at part throttle to 5000rrms and starts spooling at only 1500rpms....fullly boosting at 3500rpms!
This is better performance than from when I had 11:1 CR on stock pistons.
I have decided to continue with this medium break in untill about 1000km and then have it tuned.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,969
Likes: 0
From: Where Geos Go Fast, 95355
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (boosted_zc)
Damnit! and thats the simple version too! i need to take a class or something on how to not write so damn much. lmao.
Mr. Badwrench
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 14,146
Likes: 2
From: stranger in a strange land
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (1.8T_EG)
drive normally no hard reving for 500 miles. change the oil then. this will give the rings a chance to seat. then if you choose, synthetic oil after 15k miles.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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From: Yokohama, Japan, Japan
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (boostedcivicsir)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostedcivicsir »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">drive normally no hard reving for 500 miles. change the oil then. this will give the rings a chance to seat. then if you choose, synthetic oil after 15k miles.</TD></TR></TABLE>
synthetic after 15k miles? isnt that a bit extreme? Even larry says after 1000 miles synthetic is ok
synthetic after 15k miles? isnt that a bit extreme? Even larry says after 1000 miles synthetic is ok
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 3,858
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From: bay area/socal, CA, USA
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (MiraiZ)
Ok, someone confirm this 1 thing for me. You can boost while breaking in the motor? Because when you say " rough" breakin, obviously my car will boost if I go past half throttle. Im assuming WOT boost is not good.
Ive been told not to boost........ All I need is a simple answer. THanks
Ive been told not to boost........ All I need is a simple answer. THanks
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 833
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From: Jacksonville, Fl
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (intekragsr)
Mild boost will be alright durring the break in. Some people say the rings seat a little faster if you boost it early. Dont know how much truth that holds, but doing it wont hurt.
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: SOMEWHERE IN CENTRAL, NY, USA
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (genop)
Wow I never knew that you break in engine hard. But I guess ignorance. Anyway it does make sense for seating rings better.
Mr. Badwrench
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 14,146
Likes: 2
From: stranger in a strange land
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (MiraiZ)
when we build the buicks, they get change after 500, then 3000 after that then every 3000 after that then after 15,000 thats 5 oil changes, not just one, switch to synthetic for every 3000-4000. i didnt mean to keep it in there for 15,000 miles.
Mr. Badwrench
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 14,146
Likes: 2
From: stranger in a strange land
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (boostedcivicsir)
and for the honda filter, it has more media in the filter to stop dirt. more media means more filter stuff.
Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,703
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From: Somewhere in, USA
Re: ... engine rebuild... break-in process... easy vs hard... ??? (lazerus)
2 of my buddies who are honda technicians at honda/acura in FL, told me that the honda filters are made by FRAM. i belive it says fram on the bottom of the filter. is this "honda filter" a better or is it the same filter you can get at any autoparts store...i have no idea...just food for thought....i also went in to buy "HONDA MANUAL TRANSMISSION FLUID" and after my buddies saw me there, they told me that the "honda" MTF was just 10w-40.
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