<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kpt4321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yeah, A/F ratio definately doesn't matter. I put my car at 8:1 and then 20:1, and it definately ran the exact same.

I think you need to take the class again?
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haha, thats exactly what I thought you would say.. but yeh, not that dramatically but some engines it doesn't matter. 10:1 or 13:1 the engine doesn't care.. alot of engines it does. Ben teaches how you how to tell. but oh yeh, u already know everything about tuning engines. and yeh, Id take it a 3rd time if I could.

 

If you're a graduate from the University of Himself like J. Davis (just kidding ) or a DIYer then, no, this course is not for you. However if you're a newb to tuning like myself or appreciate listening to a learned AND experienced person who actually lives this stuff 24/7, then yes. Ben is a great communicator/teacher, something many e-thug, honda-tech no-it-alls lack.

I attended the 101 course and got a lot of good info. Some I already knew and some I didn't. For me, the most challenging thing was relearning the physics stuff that I half-listened to in high school .

 

Kyle,

While I certainly agree that our courses are not for everyone, I would hope that someone of your elevated experience and knowledge would recognize the fact that there are far more people who would benefit from spending the money to attend one of our classes, than those like yourself who are more than capable of "starting their own school".

I am not trying to sell our classes to every member of H-T, and never intended to do so. We simply offer a high quality product that is packed with information that takes YEARS of experience and study to get. Our courses do not claim to make anyone an expert tuner. We simply offer to get someone started out on the right foot and prevent them from getting all the "good information" they need from reading websites.

Case in point:

Here is a quote taken from your very website located at

http://home.comcast.net/~tarryo/kyle/index.html that states:

"CFM and lbs/min use different units, but define the same thing: how many molecules of gas are going through the turbo, or down the intake runner, or into the head."

Let me explain why this is completely incorrect.

If the CFM rating of flow is used, it refers to the amount of VOLUME {cubic feet} is moving past our measuring point over a period of time.

The problem is that the density of any object is more generally described as its WEIGHT per unit of VOLUME.

Because density is greatly affected by both PRESSURE and TEMPERATURE, the weight of any volume such as a cubic foot can change drastically under differing circumstances.

Example: 1 cubic foot of air weighs .076 lbs at sea level

So if I have a 500 CFM flow rating at sea level, the 500 * .076 = 38 Lbs of air per MIN

So then the MASS FLOW is NOT the same as the CFM as your website indicates.

What if the altitude affected the PRESSURE and TEMPERATURE of my cubic foot such that 1 cubic foot only weighed .068 Lbs?

Then my 500 CFM rating only equates to 34 lbs of air per min

If our engine had a 9.5 BSAC, then this would equate to a difference in power of about 38 Horsepower!

This means that CFM and Lbs/Min are definately NOT the same thing as you imply.

Don't take offense to this, I am not picking on you, I am simply trying to illustrate my point that our classes teach a lot more than just "basics that everyone already knows."

I realize that not all of our information is printed in our textbooks, and this thread is a prefect example of why not. If I put everything I teach into a simple book, then why would anyone come to my seminar when they can just "borrow" the info available in their buddy's book like J. Davis did?

I do not want to argue with anyone over whether or not our classes are worthwhile or not. I'll let the nearly 250 previous students who have come through the program do that. I just wanted to show why simply getting an "internet education" is not always the best value.

Ben Strader

 

The course is awesome. I've been tweaking Hondata for 2 years, and doing basic static timing and fuel pressure tuning for nearly 6. Ben did a great job of putting a lot of the theory into practice, and like I said in a former topic, the time spent on spark plug reading was worth the cost alone. I'll be doing an advanced course the second they come into western Canada.

 

Ben is the one that tunes and helps out on our racecar. We are always on the dyno together and I throw questions at him everytime. We have gone through a million different situations. I have taken the course twice and have learned even more then just being around Ben a lot. Just like working on cars, its a never ending learning process. Theres always room to pick up some tips of info from basics to advanced. I highly recomend the class to pretty much all levels of tuners.

 

I like Tony1's quote the best on Ben Strader, "I have yet to find a question that ben didnt know the answer to. But I'll find one!"

 

i got one for him art,,,,, ben when you coming to n.y to tune my car lol

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Flamenco-T &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You don't go to mechanic school for 2 years and be a master engine builder the day after. That comes with experience, take the knowledge from the class and start to play aorund a little bit in your safety adn comfort zones, then move forward...

stan</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DIRep972 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
haha, thats exactly what I thought you would say.. but yeh, not that dramatically but some engines it doesn't matter. 10:1 or 13:1 the engine doesn't care.. alot of engines it does. Ben teaches how you how to tell. but oh yeh, u already know everything about tuning engines. and yeh, Id take it a 3rd time if I could.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Show me one situation where the difference between 10:1 and 13:1 will not yeild any knid of change from the motor; I guarantee you that you will not find one.

A change like that will not effect a stock D15 as much as it will effect something like a 500 whp pump gas B18. However, there is still an effect.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kpt4321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Show me one situation where the difference between 10:1 and 13:1 will not yeild any kind of change from the motor; I guarantee you that you will not find one.

A change like that will not effect a stock D15 as much as it will effect something like a 500 whp pump gas B18. However, there is still an effect.
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Ben spoke from personel experience in the class about a motor he tuned where there was a dramatic change in the a/f ratio w/ no change in how the engine reacted. but thats his 7+ years of field experience talking, not mine. I was only trying to back up Bryson against you, because I knew what Bryson was talking about, and I knew that you did not know what he meant by that statement. Im sure you already have a great grasp on thermal management so I am not going to sit here and repeat things I learned in the class.

 

Glad to see we can discuss this all maturely

to what seems like a very interesting class...I need to get off my lazy *** and learn something!

 

I plan on checking out the CT class when it comes around!

 

I think I have the record of being in the class the most times...6 or 7. I learn new things each time. One of the fringe benefits is meeting great people from Honda-Tech and also professionals from the industry. Classes have included 2 attendees from Honda R&D America, at least 6 tech editors from various magazines, 2 R&D employees from Garrett Turbo, shop owners like Kenny Tran from Jotech, Darren from R & D Dyno, Shane from AutoWave, etc etc.

 

You do understand that only the maker of the post can edit his or her's own post. Ben can only modify his own post, not anyone elses. I can modify any post as a moderator but have not edited anything here. If I were to edit someone's post, it automatically sends them an IM saying that I did modify it. Moderators have to justify anything they do to a thread or a member.

 

J. Davis,


First, I never "truly" questioned whether or not Kyle knows his stuff. I simply wanted to illustrate how easy it is for others to become mis-informed by getting their "internet education" which he insinuated was just as effective as our courses...

The information as it was posted on his sight was misleading whether he can understand that or not. He said the two definitions were the same, and they are not. Many young guys would just stop there and not bother to dig any deeper. This is why there is so much bunk info floating around the internet and why I believe our classes are a better solution than just reading books {which also are suspect at times} and sifting through websites for information.

Did I get a little personal in doing that? Yes, maybe...considering the fact that I knew folks would interpret my response as a snipe attempt, and for that Kyle, I do apologize.

I suppose I let the childish remarks get the best of me and needed some form of retaliatory satisfaction. I just didn't think it was fair for a young, inexperienced guy to come out with guns blazing and make negative remarks about a class that I have worked VERY hard at making a tremendous value to those who wish to learn, and one which he has never even given a chance.

If you haven't attended a class, you cannot understand the value that is imparted to each student by an instructor who truly cares enough to take the time to thoroughly explain each topic until they get it. There is a whole lot more that goes on in our classes than what is in the book. This is intentional, as it maintains a certain level of informational security for us when guys read through one of our manuals without attending a class. Thats all.

Now, having said that.....

I had NOTHING to do with the editing of this post. In fact, the last time I saw it, the post had been locked and I figured I'd just let it die. When I saw it tonight I was actually surprised it came back to life, but I'm glad it did so that I could have a chance to make peace with both Kyle, and J. Davis.

Look guys, I know the classes are not for everyone. That doesn't make them a ripoff, or an unfair value. The bottom line is, if you don't need the course...then don't take it. Just don't assume that everyone else in the world is at your level and couldn't learn anything from someone with nearly 4,000 hours of actual dyno time programming nearly every type of aftermarket EFI system and carburetor on the market.

The people who attend our courses benefit from the experiences I've had and sharing that information with them is extrememly inexpensive compared to the cost of obtaining one's own experience in dyno hours and broken engine parts.

I don't take much personally, but when people who haven't experienced what our courses have to offer start getting on a soapbox to tell others to stay away, simply for the sake of argument...I sometimes feel the need to defend our side of the story.

I believe that our reputation speaks for itself and that most often our satisfied students do a fine job of telling our story, but every once in a while I get the urge to snap back. I apologize.

-Ben

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EFIGUY &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Look guys, I know the classes are not for everyone. That doesn't make them a ripoff, or an unfair value.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I never said they were a ripoff, and I am sorry if I inferred any such thing.

I'm deleting some shizzle, apologies to everyone involved.

 

Good enough for me.

there....now we can be friends again. {Doc Holiday, Tombstone}

 

I have spent the past 5 or 6 years studying and learning about tuning and engine management. Ive gained my information from books, smart people, and experience.

I took Ben's class recently and I was pretty upset.

The information that I spent the past few years gaining was handed to me on a silver platter in a matter of a couple of days. Everything I thought I understood or thought I had learned was confirmed by the class. However, Ben explains things in such a way that it makes it much easier to understand. I dont have to be an engineer to figure out what he is talking about.

If you want to teach yourself how to tune, do yourself a favor and take the class. It will give you the foundation to learn more.

Even though I have taken the class I still feel as though I can learn more. I hope at some point I will be able to take EFI advanced. The class also renewed my thirst to learn more about what I do.

Thumbs up to ben and crew for providing the public with this class.

jason

 

Ben ur both a gentlemen and a scholar

cant wait til ur down under!

 

I think what some of these socially inept, self-proclaimed smart-asses don't get is that attending "courses," you learn, make important contacts, and experience other things besides the boring content of a syllabus. It's the social interaction that is missed from an internet degree.

"Those who claim they know everything, know nothing at all"

Don't mind me, I'm venting

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rah Rah &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Don't mind me, I'm venting </TD></TR></TABLE>
You should change your name fromRah Rah to blah blah blah..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by freakie &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
cant wait til ur down under!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Don't tempt Ben like that!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Arturbo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You should change your name fromRah Rah to blah blah blah..</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

To me EFI101 is a 'foundations' class. Whether you think you already have the foundations or not, this class will benefit you in one of two ways, no matter your learning style or ability.

#1 - Ben lays the foundations in a very comprehendable way. For most people in any subject matter, problems lie with the ability to understand the concepts, remember Calculus? It's not the math that's hard it's the method to the calculation that gets most people. Ben's method of teaching his own methods (or secrets as some 'tooners' call them) is 2nd to none. This will help someone who doesn't have the foundation there already...and as they learn after the class, they can easily go back to what they learned and verify that what they learned is correct. I go back to my EFI101 binder frequently.

#2 - If you already have the foundations, like Tony1 says, Ben classes reinforces EVERYTHING you already knew. What better way to build confidence as a tooner by having everything you thought you knew backed up by the best in the business. Why are Harvard grads highly sought after...because they have the best teachers...not necessarily because they have the best understand or learning skills. But the ones who have good teachers and good learning skills are the ones that succeed in life. A good tuner will be an even better tuner after taking this class.

Ben also offers a pretty kickass Newsletter. I look forward to seeing that each month

 

Hey guys,

thanks for the kind replies.

All of you have taken my classes, but its important for us to remember that ALL of you have also given something back to my classes. It is the feedback we get from you {both positive and negative} that allows us to evaluate whether or not we are giving a good value by providing our services and constantly improve them.

Aside from that, the true value sometimes lies in the networking and communications that take place in our classes. How many H-T members have been around for years with nothing more to know each other by than a screen name? The classes get everyone together on a level playing feild and allow us all to make relationships that benefit the community as a whole by making basic tuners out of newbies and making better tuners out of those already in the biz.

In the end this all translates to setting a higher standard for engine tuners which directly affects the quality of service the end user receives for each dollar they invest in tuning their cars. This means less blown up engines and more Horsepower per dollar spent.

That, my friends is the true value of courses like this!

Here's to all of you!