Ok I seem to be finding alot of claimed hp figures with out dyno pics posted on "completely stock motors" making a ***** load of power from boost settings as low as 10-12psi. What I mean by ***** load anywhere from 320 to the 400!! That person would either be a ******* genius when it comes to tuning with "aem ems,crome,neptune ......etc,etc" or really non conservative. Can anyone on H-t please explain this? And I know the condition of the motor, temperature, blah, blah, blah has something to do with it, but come on horsepower that high on a stock motor? Or does the word stock motor have a new meaning in 2k6 as in no sleeves but pistons & rods with block guards? Realistically speaking, leaving Narnia
& Tumus behind is that horsepower on a stock motor daily drivable or just wam bam thank you mam till it blows? Or is the golden child tuning that car........ if so please show us your dyno plots,a/f tables,injector size,additional fuel & what other bolt ons you used to attain this power on a "STOCK" motor.......

 

not sure but i know a lot of people are starting to run water or methanol injection kits to lower egt temps and prevent detonation. Maybe this is how people are getting big numbers?

 

Stock block means stock everything in the block. It's all about incredible tuning and some really good EMS's these days.

 

Or just the widespread use of inertia type dynos which are pointless for gauging hp #'s for forced induction applications.

Even the eddy-current type DynoJets switch to inertia mode for HP #'s just so there aren't discrepancies between the two types as far as #'s are concerned.

 

I'll try to attempt this since I had the #1 highest LS stock block for a while at 328whp.

Lets get things out of the way first. The weakest part of the stock B series (and probably D series as well even with thin rods) will probably be the Cast pistons and their ringlands. What breaks ANY engine either built or stock is cylinder pressures or heat...that's it. Heat is managed by correct tuning keeping the AF's nice and ignition in the correct place. Notice I didn't say rich retarded, because that is NOT correct. Keeping 12.0 AFR is a great place to be. On all motor cars they try to aim for MAX power so 13.0-13.5 is where gasoline makes the most power. For turbo cars we want to reduce the heat coming in by inserting more fuel that will not be burnt in the end (14.7 is where theoretically all gasoline is burnt completely). Under 12.0 is not necessary, but can help if it's really cold one day and the IAT correction is a little off (not giving ebough fuel). People that go 11.0 or under is not only not good, but looses a lot of power quickly.

Ignition timing can also be dialed in conservatively. I'm not going to go too in depth because there is a lot to understand in the tuning field.
Here's a post I did in the LS-T thread about my car:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">at peak torque I'm at 13 degrees and 14 degrees at peak HP and the rest of the 16 PSI column. I actually made 300whp at 13 PSI and that would be perfect if I wasn't on stock pistons. The cylinder pressure at that PSI and timing are not good for the longetivity of any engine. Stock cylinders are the weak sause in my system so I have to work with that. Like I said cylinder pressures are what kill engines (aside from detonation). So unlike most Dumbass HT members think, you know the ones who immeditely say "OVER 9PSI IS DANG3ROUS!!1!!", running more boost is better for stock internals and will help me keep my 303whp and 260trq for a long time . On non stock internals or under 250whp I always tune for max power and then take a degree or 2 out to keep it safe.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I am trying to bring PEAK cylinder pressures down while keeping the area under the pressure curve greater. This yields the same power, but makes it safer for the engine. I did this only because I have CAST stock pistons on forged pistons I would just leave it at it's MBT.

Hope this helps. If you have any specific questions go ahead and ask away. If I misssed anything let me know too

 

I forgot to comment on the VS. haha

Well, I just explained what conservative is. Non-conservative is when you push the ignition advance past MBT to gain a few HP and torque. You can also lean out the fuel to NA levels if you don't detoante 12.5 is still pretty safe but after that you'll def. keep gaining power, but the heat generated may be too great. Like I said around mid 13's is where gasoline makes it's most power. People tune for these levels on track cars to get that extra edge and some some reliability.

How long a car lasts isn't how aggresssively tuned it is, but how much it lightly detonated because of that aggressive tune. Maybe it's a hot day and the fuel isn't fresh you may detonate a little with an aggressive tune....not enough to blow the engine immediately but do it enough and it will. Get it?

 

great explanation

 

Wow that is and was an awesome explanation. Ok. for areas that get pretty cold (NoVa) what would you recommend on a built h22-sleeved 9.0:1 boosted block running around 15psi? Also keeping in mind it gets really hot during the summer & humid. What I currently have is hondata s100 (currently set around 11.5 to be conservative) . Is that still one of the best tuning pieces or is the s300 or anything else a better tuning instrument? Any advice would be great.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Drkaccrd &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Wow that is and was an awesome explanation. Ok. for areas that get pretty cold (NoVa) what would you recommend on a built h22-sleeved 9.0:1 boosted block running around 15psi? Also keeping in mind it gets really hot during the summer & humid. What I currently have is hondata s100 (currently set around 11.5 to be conservative) . Is that still one of the best tuning pieces or is the s300 or anything else a better tuning instrument? Any advice would be great. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You tuner will make that decision and yeah 11.5 is good. Timing is safe where your tuner thinks it's safe. The s100 is just as good as the s300 so no worries there either. As far as IAT's go (weather) talk to your tuner and ask what they are when you do a pull. The lower the better obviously. I think there is a certain percentage you should stay within from ambient air temps, but anything under 130* is OK

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by adseguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Non-conservative is when you push the ignition advance past MBT to gain a few HP and torque. </TD></TR></TABLE>

gain power by going past mbt?

you must be refering to a motor where the knock threshold is being hit before MBT is reached.

 

Conservative = knowing where the knock limit lies and going well below it.

Non-Conservative = living near the knock limit.

It has nothing to do with the amount of power or anything like that. If you will being to detonate at 23*, and you find MBT at 21*, and you decide to run 21*, that is not conservative. That is relatively aggressive. Under the same conditions you decide to run 19* at the expense of some power, that is conservative. If you will detonate at 23* but find MBT at 19*, and you decide to run 19* it is a conservative tune. If you run less than 19* you are getting in the ultra conservative land. These are just random numbers, but it should give you an idea what consistutes a more conservative tune. The further you get away from the knock limit, the more conservative a tune will become. This is why people use water/alky injection, run higher octane fuel than necessary, and things of that nature. It take MBT and moves it further and further away from the knock limit, thus making the engine safer and safer.

 

Conservative = I didnt make the power i wanted to
Non-Conservative = My dyno is reading way too high, but i'll claim it anyway

 

Great info in this thread.

 

Okay rookie question but school me on MBT. I know it has something to do with timing but what does the acronym mean?

 

MBT=minimum best timing. This is the place where adding more ignition timing will not yeild in increases in torque.

 

maximum brake torque (MBT)

Pretty much what he said. It is the place where you hit the most tq, but detonation can occurr before this. You want to tune to MBT, but if you get knock before that then so be it, you sacrifice a few degrees and stay safe.

 

ok so in theory messing with the MBT and ignition timing will make more torque within non detonation parameters.... you would need a dyno to make sure or listen if your street tuning.

 

Def need a dyno. Makes life easier.

 

If you street tuning its very hard to hear detonation over wind, exhaust, turbo etc. Usually by the time its audible its very severe detonation. Alot of people on this board are using "Det cans" to listen for detonation. Do a search for it if you want to learn more. Another way is to pull the plugs and look for signs of detonation. But thats after the fact and can be misleading if your not an expert at reading plugs.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

gain power by going past mbt?

you must be refering to a motor where the knock threshold is being hit before MBT is reached. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I've noticed that I still gain some power when going past MBT, but not that much at all. Once you start going down is when you have light detonation.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Drkaccrd &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok so in theory messing with the MBT and ignition timing will make more torque within non detonation parameters.... you would need a dyno to make sure or listen if your street tuning.</TD></TR></TABLE>

MBT is part of ignition timing. MBT is where you make the most torque SAFELY. Listening for detonation with just your ear rarely works and shouldn't be used. USing a mechnaical or good electronic device works, but a dyno can tell you about detonation anyway.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by adseguy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I've noticed that I still gain some power when going past MBT, but not that much at all. Once you start going down is when you have light detonation.

MBT is part of ignition timing. MBT is where you make the most torque SAFELY.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you have a different definition of MBT than some people. I assume the T in your MBT is Torque, not Timing.

 

I learned it Minimum Best timing, but the Pro's and all the book's I've read is Maximum Brake Torque. Same thing really if you think about it

 

Okay one thing is I will give Weq credit<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Weq &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Conservative = I didnt make the power i wanted to
Non-Conservative = My dyno is reading way too high, but i'll claim it anyway
</TD></TR></TABLE> I made 325 hp on 15psi and was hoping to have made a little more. I think one of the things thats hurting me is that the dumptube is mated to the downpipe right were the wastegate sits. DP is 2.5" ( for P/S & A/C reasons) the rest is 3" all the way through coming from a rev-hard manifold ,sc50 precision turbo. Built motor 9.0:1 525cc precion injectors, walbro fuel pump. What do you think? Can more be made? Or is this what I can expect from this set up?