As far as doing a one-off EMS install, for the cost, you can probably convert your car to OBD1 (maybe??) And have any of the OBD1 solutions to work off of.

Are there any other sensors that you could disable that would put it into open-loop all the time? TPS? IAT? PA?

I have circumstatial information that says that an OBD0 car with the TPS disconnected will run in open-loop all the time, but that is a much much more forgiving setup.

And there are articles about hooking up a relay to the ecu, so that when the engine turns off, so does the steady-power to the ecu, resetting it.

Edit, and I just ran across on another site some explanation of the PA sensor code, if the PA sensor sees that the MAP sensor is wildly different, it codes.

-PHiZ


Modified by PHiZ at 12:35 AM 3/29/2004

 

I was just suggested this unit by a member on the Yahoo! E-Manage forum:

http://www.splitsec.com/products/conditioner.htm

Quote from site...

How does the ESC1 work?

The ESC1 connects to the pre-cat oxygen sensors. When the manifold pressure reaches 1 PSI of boost, the ESC1 sends a signal to the ECU that puts it into open loop mode.

...

This sounds like what we need to tune an OBD-II ECU with partial-throttle, under boost, with a piggy-back controller.

Here's a guy using it on his Toyota SUV: http://www.gadgetonline.com/fu...0ESC1:

Has anyone ever heard of this being used on a Honda? Do you think it'll work?

Does making the ECU see a stoic mixture by conditioning the first O2 sensor signal cause the ECU to kick into open loop?



Modified by johnyblaze at 6:50 AM 3/29/2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PHiZ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Edit, and I just ran across on another site some explanation of the PA sensor code, if the PA sensor sees that the MAP sensor is wildly different, it codes.

-PHiZ
Modified by PHiZ at 12:35 AM 3/29/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>

So will voltage clamping the MAP signal resolve this?

Or as I previously proposed, perhaps using a Missing Link check valve to hide boost from the MAP, and then using the GReddy E-Manage pressure sensor to read the manifold pressure instead of the stock MAP sensor.

 

ive tuned the greddy emange on a rsx types with the the greddy turbo kit installed on it kenji was actually shocked to find out that i made more power from tuning their base map they give you in a locked emanage i made close to 300 whp on a stock type s with 440 injectors

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ImAcracker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I always heard that if you disconect your Primary o2 sensor that the ECU will run strictly off of the fuel maps. And I also noticed the when I had my o2 sensor disconected my ECU would not try and correct a bad lean tune in the idle portion of my fuel map. My tune was originally running lean when I started the car and I could see the ECU slowy start to richen it up (this is with the o2 sensor connected). But when I disconected my Primary o2 sensor when i started the car it would just sit there running real lean. The ECU would not richen up the mixture. I then burned a chip with more fuel in the idle portion of the fuel map and could see my changes stay exactly where I put them (when the o2 sensor is disconnected). So im conffused as to why the ECU is not richening up the mixture for me when the ECU ASSumes a lean condition. Is there another reason why the ECU would not be correcting the mixture with the Primary o2 sensor disconected?


Oh. And all these A/F's were monitord using a wideband. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Why would my ECU be doing this if it was not in open loop? It appears to be in open loop to me. Stop ignoring me J.Davis I know you know the answer.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ImAcracker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Why would my ECU be doing this if it was not in open loop? It appears to be in open loop to me. Stop ignoring me J.Davis I know you know the answer.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I responded in re OBD1, I have little experience with OBD2. But, you want it, you got it.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I always heard that if you disconect your Primary o2 sensor that the ECU will run strictly off of the fuel maps.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No comment. I know it doesn't work that way with OBD1, I have no experience with dual O2 sensor setups except miscegenated OBD0 PR3/PW0.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And I also noticed the when I had my o2 sensor disconected my ECU would not try and correct a bad lean tune in the idle portion of my fuel map. My tune was originally running lean when I started the car and I could see the ECU slowy start to richen it up (this is with the o2 sensor connected). But when I disconected my Primary o2 sensor when i started the car it would just sit there running real lean. The ECU would not richen up the mixture. I then burned a chip with more fuel in the idle portion of the fuel map and could see my changes stay exactly where I put them (when the o2 sensor is disconnected). So im conffused as to why the ECU is not richening up the mixture for me when the ECU ASSumes a lean condition. Is there another reason why the ECU would not be correcting the mixture with the Primary o2 sensor disconected? </TD></TR></TABLE>

How are you chipping OBD2? Your use of the word "Primary" suggests "Secondary," which means you aren't talking anything USDM OBD1. I thought this thread was about OBD2, but we got a little OT?

If you're trying to base an argument on OBD0 PR3/PW0 ECU behavior, I can assure you that platform is just fucked. I have a local kid with a 91 Pigtegra + B16A1 swap with a variant of the Mugen XE9 code that doesn't use KS or O2 sensors that I tuned the fuel maps on... he gets 27 mpg, no fuel correction code aka "closed loop" involved. Damned if I can replicate that in regular OBD0/OBD1.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ive tuned the greddy emange on a rsx types with the the greddy turbo kit installed on it kenji was actually shocked to find out that i made more power from tuning their base map they give you in a locked emanage i made close to 300 whp on a stock type s with 440 injectors </TD></TR></TABLE>


And your advice is.......??

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I responded in re OBD1, I have little experience with OBD2. But, you want it, you got it.

No comment. I know it doesn't work that way with OBD1, I have no experience with dual O2 sensor setups except miscegenated OBD0 PR3/PW0.

How are you chipping OBD2? Your use of the word "Primary" suggests "Secondary," which means you aren't talking anything USDM OBD1. I thought this thread was about OBD2, but we got a little OT?

If you're trying to base an argument on OBD0 PR3/PW0 ECU behavior, I can assure you that platform is just fucked. I have a local kid with a 91 Pigtegra + B16A1 swap with a variant of the Mugen XE9 code that doesn't use KS or O2 sensors that I tuned the fuel maps on... he gets 27 mpg, no fuel correction code aka "closed loop" involved. Damned if I can replicate that in regular OBD0/OBD1.

</TD></TR></TABLE>
OK. My bad. I keep forgeting that Im only using one of the o2 sensors that is plugged into my exhaust. I was orignally OBDII and switched to OBDI. TO clear up any confusion Im running Uberdata on a P28 EDM ECU.

But my question still lies as to why would my ECU not try and richen up my tune with my o2 sensor unplugged since you say it will "ASSume" a lean condition. With the o2 plugged in I can see my A/F' being richen up on a lean tune but with the o2 plug disconected it does nothing. Just sits there and runs lean. This is at idle. What else would cause this? Thanks for the input. I greatly apreciate it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnyblaze &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was just suggested this unit by a member on the Yahoo! E-Manage forum:

http://www.splitsec.com/products/conditioner.htm

Quote from site...

How does the ESC1 work?

The ESC1 connects to the pre-cat oxygen sensors. When the manifold pressure reaches 1 PSI of boost, the ESC1 sends a signal to the ECU that puts it into open loop mode.

...

This sounds like what we need to tune an OBD-II ECU with partial-throttle, under boost, with a piggy-back controllerHas anyone ever heard of this being used on a Honda? Do you think it'll work?

Does making the ECU see a stoic mixture by conditioning the first O2 sensor signal cause the ECU to kick into open loop?

Modified by johnyblaze at 6:50 AM 3/29/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>

After reading some things on the net - all this appears to be is a boost referenced O2 simulator. I'm guessing that their meaning of "open-loop" is that you can change the fuel trims and the ECU won't know. As far as I am aware on OBDII ECU's the O2 sensor isn't going to be the only thing that determines if the ECU runs in open-loop mode. I'm guessing all this does (for $200) is utilize a pressure sensor that checks when absolute pressure goes above 0 PSI, disables the output of the O2 sensor, and injects a 555 timer signal into the ECU to simulate a stoch mixture, thereby allowing you to tune your fuel trims under boost without mucking up the idle / part throttle fuel trims...

Anyone care to chime in?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ImAcracker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
OK. My bad. I keep forgeting that Im only using one of the o2 sensors that is plugged into my exhaust. I was orignally OBDII and switched to OBDI. TO clear up any confusion Im running Uberdata on a P28 EDM ECU.

But my question still lies as to why would my ECU not try and richen up my tune with my o2 sensor unplugged since you say it will "ASSume" a lean condition. With the o2 plugged in I can see my A/F' being richen up on a lean tune but with the o2 plug disconected it does nothing. Just sits there and runs lean. This is at idle. What else would cause this? Thanks for the input. I greatly apreciate it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I've not observed any idle AFRs with stock O2. I do know that under cruise w/ O2 disconnected you stumble and run very rich, it leads to high speed glazing of the plugs in forced induction applications.

Fuel correction code meant for closed loop operation during cruise is going to be a little different in nature than any fuel trim corrections at idle. The nature of closed loop is to richen fuel mixture when a lean condition is present. Just like your IACV only works at idle... and the AF correction you experience at idle only happens, well, at idle.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by johnyblaze &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How do you tune using a piggy-back controller (like GReddy E-Manage) while the stock ECU is in closed-loop and still adjusting the long term fuel maps?

We're struggling with this, trying to tune with a wideband O2 on street and dyno, but we can't reproduce the AFRs deterministically between runs because the ECU is still "learning" the fuel curves and adjusting them. Of course this is a non-issue for WOT tuning, but I also need to tune while not under load so that day-to-day driving works too.

What are people doing to circumvent this? And what happens if I complete a tuning session only to have the ECU continue its learning cycle and re-adjust the long term maps?

Another thing to note too is that I've been having to reset my ECU for various things (mostly to clear OBD-II rear O2 sensor codes) which means my ECU never gets to complete its learning cycle.

This is for a 2002 Honda Civic Ex (D17a2) with upgraded 370cc injectors. I'm running 8psi boost. We're using the e-Manage airflow map and the additional injection map for fuel tuning. The axis for the maps are as follows...

Airflow: Adjust MAP voltage according to TPS & RPM
Additional Injection: Add injector duty cycle according to MAP voltage & RPM

What else is odd is that we're NOT clamping the stock MAP sensor voltage and the stock ECU is NOT complaining -- Honda ECUs are notorious for throwing codes when MAP sensors see boost. Anyone know why I'm not seeing MAP codes? I am however seeing a P1106 code indicating out-of-range voltage from the barometric pressure sensor (which is located in the stock ECU casing). This may or may not be related to not clamping the MAP voltage. Has anyone else seen this or know how to resolve it?</TD></TR></TABLE>
You should be letting the stock ecu deal with closed loop, while pulling the appropriate amount from your larger-than-stock injectors so that closed loop operates like stock. Then use whatever your equivalent in the e-manage is for a boost map for fueling during boost. With a setup like yours, you should be entering open loop at the onset of boost, regardless of whether you are at part throttle or WOT. Is this the case for you? Boosting in closed loop would be problematic.

JFYI, LTFT calibrates itself in the first 20 minutes of driving after an ecu reset. So unless your intake air temps are climbing considerably between dyno runs, or you are resetting your ecu between runs, you should not be having trouble getting consistent a/f readings run to run. LTFT will change from day to day, compensating for temperature and barometric pressure. I've found this to be helpful in preserving my tune despite changes in weather.

I have a similar setup, but I use the EFI PMS. This is on my 2000 Prelude. For the first year with my setup, I used the OBDII "workaround" to disable the ecu memory, while pulling a certain amount from my idle and part throttle maps, in an attempt to keep the LTFT at zero at all times. My concern at the time was that LTFT changes would indeed screw my tune up. What I found was that changing weather with an LTFT that stayed at zero was screwing my tune, and I had to frequently make manual adjustments to my part throttle maps to get my a/f where I wanted it. I no longer use the "workaround", and instead let the stock ecu and LTFT do their thing. I know rarely am manually adjusting my maps, despite drastic changes in weather. LTFT is your friend.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sharkcohen &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
With a setup like yours, you should be entering open loop at the onset of boost, regardless of whether you are at part throttle or WOT. Is this the case for you? Boosting in closed loop would be problematic.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why do you assume that I'm in open loop at the onset of boost? Does the stock ECU kick into open loop when MAP is at &gt;= 0psi?

What if I'm voltage clamping the MAP signal? Or if I'm using a Missing Link check valve? I need to do one of these so that the ECU won't complain about positive manifold pressure.

As far as I can tell, the ECU is indeed still in closed loop during partial throttle and in boost. The fuel trim is beind adjusted. Although, my ECU reader only reads codes and so I can't say for sure if the ECU is in closed loop when I think it is -- I only assume based on the non-reproducible fuel trims.

It's encouraging to hear that you have a Prelude with a piggy back and have it running well. But I'm still not convinced it's possible! I need the ECU's short terms trims to stop altering my partial throttle AFRs, and the ECU's long term trims to stop altering my WOT AFRs.

I must be missing something key cuz it just seems impossible to me right now without something like Split Second ESC1 for partial throttle, and resetting the ECU all the time for WOT.

Please tell me what I'm missing!!

Thnx everyone.

 

First, if you are resetting your ecu alot, stop because that is part of your problem. Let the LTFT run its normal course. If you are resetting it all the time, then it is indeed changing drastically on you all the time, as it is trying to recalibrate. As I said above, LTFT will stabilize after about 20 minutes of driving.

I wasn't assuming that you were in open loop at the onset of boost, I was asking. Does this ecu reader of yours allow you to monitor your OBDII outputs, such as LTFT and STFT? If STFT goes to zero at the onset of boost, then you are going into open loop at the onset of boost. You can also see if you are in open loop if you have a cheesy autometer style narrowband a/f gauge, it would read "rich" during boost, and not oscillate like in closed loop.

Part throttle, off-boost operation should be allowed to be controlled by the stock ecu, i.e. the stock ecu should be in closed loop during those conditions.

The ecu should change over to open loop near 0 psi. As far as the ecu knows, when you are at 0 psi you are at WOT conditions, and it will switch to open loop accordingly.

You definitely want the stock ecu in open loop during boost or your a/f is going to fluctuate as the stock ecu hunts and pecks for "stoich". Additionally, this WILL cause changes to your LTFT, in turn affecting your tune.

You shouldn't make any idle or off-boost part throttle changes to your fueling, or this WILL affect a change in your LTFT, as the ecu will adjust STFT (and therefore LTFT) to counteract such changes. Only make the adjustments needed to run your larger injectors as if they were your stock injectors. Use whatever the e-manage uses for a boost table for fueling for boost.

I am currently using a voltage clamp for my MAP signal. I will be switching to a missing link soon, as the voltage clamp isn't precise enough (I often end up in open loop even though I am still in low vaccum, not quite into boost, dependig on engine speed, causing a hesitation during the transition).