boost without forced induction?
11-08-2006, 01:58 AM
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boost without forced induction?
what is the maximume boost which engine suck it in the normal operation . without useing any forced induction ? for exampel at 7000 rbm ?
11-08-2006, 02:52 AM
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Re: (tnt-gsr)
my question in other way
if i dont use a turbo . and every thing is stock in my car
how many PSI will my MAP sensor read . when the RBM is 7000 ?
if i dont use a turbo . and every thing is stock in my car
how many PSI will my MAP sensor read . when the RBM is 7000 ?
11-08-2006, 03:00 AM
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Re: (hany)
a NA engine will never see ANY boost, thats what makes it sweet.
NA engines operate in vaccum according to throttle position and at WOT it is at 0 for every motor.
0 lbs of vaccum
NA engines operate in vaccum according to throttle position and at WOT it is at 0 for every motor.
0 lbs of vaccum
11-08-2006, 03:45 AM
#7
Re: (93supercoupe)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hany »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">my question in other way
if i dont use a turbo . and every thing is stock in my car
how many PSI will my MAP sensor read . when the RBM is 7000 ?</TD></TR></TABLE>
you will use the first bar of your 1.75 bar MAP. wtf is RBM?
if i dont use a turbo . and every thing is stock in my car
how many PSI will my MAP sensor read . when the RBM is 7000 ?</TD></TR></TABLE>
you will use the first bar of your 1.75 bar MAP. wtf is RBM?
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11-08-2006, 06:09 AM
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Re: (Bailhatch)
Under full throttle a NA car will usually see around 100-104kPa depending on atmoshperic conditions.
A NA race motor can see 1-2 psi of positive boost (i.e. 107-114kPa). The current F1 engines are rumored to produce 4-7psi beleive it or not.
A NA race motor can see 1-2 psi of positive boost (i.e. 107-114kPa). The current F1 engines are rumored to produce 4-7psi beleive it or not.
11-08-2006, 07:04 AM
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Re: (93turbo16)
With the correct resonance at a certain RPM it is very possible to actually build boost on a NA car. This is due to the air pressure waves hitting the valves at the correct moment, bouncing backwards, and hitting the back of the IM, then come back with more air then previously (kinda like wave ripples in a bathtub....if you hit it at the correct moment you can get a large wave)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93turbo16 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">N/A engines definitley do create some sort of positive pressure. I have noticed this a good bit on cars with ITBs.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Really? Strange I thought you would need an intake manifold for this....have any links or is this based on a boost gauge (which we all know can be off a little)?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93turbo16 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">N/A engines definitley do create some sort of positive pressure. I have noticed this a good bit on cars with ITBs.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Really? Strange I thought you would need an intake manifold for this....have any links or is this based on a boost gauge (which we all know can be off a little)?
11-08-2006, 07:23 AM
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Re: (adseguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by adseguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Really? Strange I thought you would need an intake manifold for this....have any links or is this based on a boost gauge (which we all know can be off a little)?</TD></TR></TABLE>
More based on just datalogs and fuel consumption. I will try to find out some more info for you, I don't have an explanation at hand.
From what I have seen floating around, they don't use the theory that you presented. It is more from a tuned runner length.
Also you can think of it kinda as a exhaust pipe, you have reflection through that as well.
Modified by 93turbo16 at 1:14 PM 11/8/2006
Really? Strange I thought you would need an intake manifold for this....have any links or is this based on a boost gauge (which we all know can be off a little)?</TD></TR></TABLE>
More based on just datalogs and fuel consumption. I will try to find out some more info for you, I don't have an explanation at hand.
From what I have seen floating around, they don't use the theory that you presented. It is more from a tuned runner length.
Also you can think of it kinda as a exhaust pipe, you have reflection through that as well.
Modified by 93turbo16 at 1:14 PM 11/8/2006
11-08-2006, 09:23 AM
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Re: (93turbo16)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93turbo16 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
More based on just datalogs and fuel consumption. I will try to find out some more info for you, I don't have an explanation at hand.
From what I have seen floating around, they don't use the theory that you presented. It is more from a tuned runner length.
Also you can think of it kinda as a exhaust pipe, you have reflection through that as well.
Modified by 93turbo16 at 1:14 PM 11/8/2006</TD></TR></TABLE>
Cool
I knew runner length was a factor in the "when" part of the equation, but I see where you are comin from. If you find any info let me/us know
More based on just datalogs and fuel consumption. I will try to find out some more info for you, I don't have an explanation at hand.
From what I have seen floating around, they don't use the theory that you presented. It is more from a tuned runner length.
Also you can think of it kinda as a exhaust pipe, you have reflection through that as well.
Modified by 93turbo16 at 1:14 PM 11/8/2006</TD></TR></TABLE>
Cool
I knew runner length was a factor in the "when" part of the equation, but I see where you are comin from. If you find any info let me/us know
11-08-2006, 09:28 AM
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Re: (adseguy)
here is something cool I ran across.
http://www.team-integra.net/se...D=466
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=21144
Also the last part where he says the reflections get lost to the engine bay, that is kinda a false statement, they aren't lost.
http://www.team-integra.net/se...D=466
http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=21144
Also the last part where he says the reflections get lost to the engine bay, that is kinda a false statement, they aren't lost.
11-08-2006, 11:57 AM
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Re: (93turbo16)
Just to clarify, the OP has no idea what we are talking about, its an interesting thread that came out of a retarded question. Just to let him know his question was stupid. And theres no such thing as RBM
11-08-2006, 12:09 PM
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Re: (TurboCoop)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TurboCoop »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just to clarify, the OP has no idea what we are talking about, its an interesting thread that came out of a retarded question. Just to let him know his question was stupid. And theres no such thing as RBM </TD></TR></TABLE>
It is still a fun subject. I am going to give a speach for my physics coloquim (sp) in the spring on this subject.
</TD></TR></TABLE>It is still a fun subject. I am going to give a speach for my physics coloquim (sp) in the spring on this subject.
11-08-2006, 12:32 PM
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Re: (Blaze45)
When you blow across the top of a Coke bottle you can generate a resonance (i.e. standing wave) that you hear but you are also creating a pressure differential that you cannot see. The same can occur in the velocity stack. Combine this with the inertia created by the air entering the intake AND time the intake and exhaust valves just right and... bingo, positive pressure.
This will NOT happen across the entire RBM (sic) band, only a small portion; generally applied to occur just after TQ peak though it would vary greatly depending on the application.
This will NOT happen across the entire RBM (sic) band, only a small portion; generally applied to occur just after TQ peak though it would vary greatly depending on the application.
11-08-2006, 01:17 PM
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Re: (TurboCoop)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TurboCoop »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just to clarify, the OP has no idea what we are talking about, its an interesting thread that came out of a retarded question. Just to let him know his question was stupid. And theres no such thing as RBM </TD></TR></TABLE>
other question to make you feel nice.
my question in other way to understand. if i did not install turbo and all my engine stock. if i installed a boost guagge and connect it to the vacuse hose in the intake manifolde. what will be the maximume boost i can read in the d16z6 ?
</TD></TR></TABLE>other question to make you feel nice.
my question in other way to understand. if i did not install turbo and all my engine stock. if i installed a boost guagge and connect it to the vacuse hose in the intake manifolde. what will be the maximume boost i can read in the d16z6 ?
11-08-2006, 01:30 PM
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Re: (93turbo16)
Making boost N/A implies a >100% VE. Not saying it isn't possible in a 200+ MPH car with ram induction, but for the vast majority of us 90% VE is a pipe dream, without, you know, a compressor. 
11-08-2006, 01:35 PM
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Re: (beepy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beepy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Making boost N/A implies a >100% VE. Not saying it isn't possible in a 200+ MPH car with ram induction, but for the vast majority of us 90% VE is a pipe dream, without, you know, a compressor. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I do agree with that, you have to have a very efficient engine (kinda like a frictionless surface in intro physics)
to start with to even think about what we are talking about, but those are those hidden little factors that are implied but seldom discussed.
Or to designate boost as anything over the max VE of the engine in a normal state or untuned manifold kinda design. Which I know, is simpliying a lot of things and it is kinda tough to do a comparison like that.
</TD></TR></TABLE>I do agree with that, you have to have a very efficient engine (kinda like a frictionless surface in intro physics)
to start with to even think about what we are talking about, but those are those hidden little factors that are implied but seldom discussed.Or to designate boost as anything over the max VE of the engine in a normal state or untuned manifold kinda design. Which I know, is simpliying a lot of things and it is kinda tough to do a comparison like that.
11-08-2006, 01:53 PM
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Re: (beepy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by beepy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Making boost N/A implies a >100% VE. Not saying it isn't possible in a 200+ MPH car with ram induction, but for the vast majority of us 90% VE is a pipe dream, without, you know, a compressor. </TD></TR></TABLE>
No. Look at sport bike engines. Many have over 100% VE. I'm fairly sure our 20mm 600cc restricted engine on our FSAE car has over 100%. You can get over 100% VE without a compressor. It requires compression in the intake manifold, but you don't need a compressor to do such a thing. Talking to the head of our engine team its about intake manifold pulse tuning. As the valves shut it it pressurizes the intake manifold a small amount and there is your "compressor". Again, over 100% VE is possible on a naturally asperated engine. I'll have more data in a few months as things move along.
</TD></TR></TABLE>No. Look at sport bike engines. Many have over 100% VE. I'm fairly sure our 20mm 600cc restricted engine on our FSAE car has over 100%. You can get over 100% VE without a compressor. It requires compression in the intake manifold, but you don't need a compressor to do such a thing. Talking to the head of our engine team its about intake manifold pulse tuning. As the valves shut it it pressurizes the intake manifold a small amount and there is your "compressor". Again, over 100% VE is possible on a naturally asperated engine. I'll have more data in a few months as things move along.