blue box and fuel pumps
09-09-2003, 11:06 AM
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blue box and fuel pumps
I need a straight answer on the blue box. Ive done alot of searching and got many different answers from different people. I need to know if i can turn the boost up to 7 or 8 lbs using the blue box on the greddy kit. with stock injectors and stock fuel pump. any help please.
09-10-2003, 08:35 AM
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Re: blue box and fuel pumps (skierGT)
with a Greddy blue box and walbro intank, you'll be fine at 8 psi. I'll confirm this in a week when I run it on my Greddy SOHC turbo, but there are many others running 10 psi on the blue box with stock injectors, timing retarded 1 deg. at the dist., and a Walbro 255lph pump. 
09-10-2003, 09:43 AM
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Re: blue box and fuel pumps (skierGT)
im running 8.5 lbs on the gsr greddy blue box, except for the 310cc injectors. stock fuel pump though
09-10-2003, 11:50 AM
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Re: blue box and fuel pumps (JOSEPH)
see what i mean about too much info. one says walbro 255 and another says 310 injectors. i dont believe i can change the stock injectors because that would mess up the blue box and im going to try goin to 7 lbs with out a new pump.
09-10-2003, 03:09 PM
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Re: blue box and fuel pumps (skierGT)
let me clear things up for you man. I have a Greddy SOHC kit too, and here's EXACTLY what you need:
stock injectors
NGK BKR6E OR BKR7E plugs, gapped at .030"
walbro 255lph INTANK fuel pump (non high-pressure)
greddy SOHC blue box
I think that's it? The reason the guy with the GSR said he was using 310cc injectors, which come with the Greddy DOHC kit and the blue box for the DOHC kit is calibrated for those injectors, unlike the SOHC kit which is calibrated for stock injectors.
Once again, you can run 8-10 lbs. on the blue box with your Greddy SOHC kit with the above listed items. Any more questions?
stock injectors
NGK BKR6E OR BKR7E plugs, gapped at .030"
walbro 255lph INTANK fuel pump (non high-pressure)
greddy SOHC blue box
I think that's it? The reason the guy with the GSR said he was using 310cc injectors, which come with the Greddy DOHC kit and the blue box for the DOHC kit is calibrated for those injectors, unlike the SOHC kit which is calibrated for stock injectors.
Once again, you can run 8-10 lbs. on the blue box with your Greddy SOHC kit with the above listed items. Any more questions?
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09-10-2003, 03:14 PM
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Re: blue box and fuel pumps (fnananon)
also, if you want to run 10 lbs. on the blue box safely, consider installing 97+ prelude injectors. They are rated at 290cc, which is 50cc more than stock civic injectors. With that setup, you'll run rich (like 10.5:1 rich) below 4000rpm, but anything above would be around 12.0-12.5:1 or so. Finally, get a B&M or other 1:1 FPR to fine tune it. I know it's ghetto, but it works for what it is. Just run that setup until you can afford hondata.
Finally, get a B&M or other 1:1 FPR to fine tune it. I know it's ghetto, but it works for what it is. Just run that setup until you can afford hondata.
09-10-2003, 03:21 PM
#9
at the jetties fishin'
Re: blue box and fuel pumps (fnananon)
uhhh you guys pimp out your fuel system way too much
I've been running around forever and a day on my greddy kit at 9psi on stock fuel system and blue box and am doing just fine....
the stock fuel pump will flow enough fuel for 12 pounds of boost (or 420cc injectors if naturally aspirated) and the stock fuel injectors at open loop flow 380cc of fuel and that's exactly what the greddy blue box does. Under boost conditions it causes the fuel injectors to go into open loop and flow max volume...which is why the greddy kit runs SOOO rich at 5.5psi...
upping the boost only helps to add more power AND to get closer to stoic...but it's not smog legal and that's why the kit is only set to 5.5psi.
it works funky past 11psi because the stock MAP sensor craps out after 10.5psi since it's a 1bar MAP sensor and is at full voltage at that boost pressure.
adding a 2bar MAP sensor is useless as the greddy blue box is only calibrated to read in the 1bar's voltage range...thus once you are ready to go past 11psi it's time for new fuel management that can handle a 2bar or 3bar MAP sensor....
a bigger fuel pump is nice but not needed as it will still be limited by the fuel injectors and factory fuel pressure regulator...and messing with either of these on a blue box setup is risky at best and like setting a timer on dynomite and forgetting what you set it at...
I've been running around forever and a day on my greddy kit at 9psi on stock fuel system and blue box and am doing just fine....
the stock fuel pump will flow enough fuel for 12 pounds of boost (or 420cc injectors if naturally aspirated) and the stock fuel injectors at open loop flow 380cc of fuel and that's exactly what the greddy blue box does. Under boost conditions it causes the fuel injectors to go into open loop and flow max volume...which is why the greddy kit runs SOOO rich at 5.5psi...
upping the boost only helps to add more power AND to get closer to stoic...but it's not smog legal and that's why the kit is only set to 5.5psi.
it works funky past 11psi because the stock MAP sensor craps out after 10.5psi since it's a 1bar MAP sensor and is at full voltage at that boost pressure.
adding a 2bar MAP sensor is useless as the greddy blue box is only calibrated to read in the 1bar's voltage range...thus once you are ready to go past 11psi it's time for new fuel management that can handle a 2bar or 3bar MAP sensor....
a bigger fuel pump is nice but not needed as it will still be limited by the fuel injectors and factory fuel pressure regulator...and messing with either of these on a blue box setup is risky at best and like setting a timer on dynomite and forgetting what you set it at...
09-15-2003, 01:11 PM
#11
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Re: blue box and fuel pumps (fnananon)
what more are you looking for specifically? injector flows? fuel restrictions?? please ask before I get too drunk from my bad day at work and ramble on about dung beetles workin for da man
09-15-2003, 02:02 PM
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Re: blue box and fuel pumps (stackz)
does the blue box raise fuel pressure at WOT? If so, how much? Do you run 8 lbs. on a completely stock fuel system, including FPR? Does it pull to redline, or does it die off in the higher RPM? Is there bogging at low RPM?
09-15-2003, 02:37 PM
#13
at the jetties fishin'
Re: blue box and fuel pumps (fnananon)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fnananon »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">does the blue box raise fuel pressure at WOT? If so, how much? Do you run 8 lbs. on a completely stock fuel system, including FPR? Does it pull to redline, or does it die off in the higher RPM? Is there bogging at low RPM?</TD></TR></TABLE>
no, fuel pressure is unaffected, only injector cycle is affected according to the voltage read from the MAP sensor. Fuel pressure is affected by the fuel pressure regulator which reads from manifold pressure via a vacuum line and not an electrical source.
I run approximately 9.5psi on a COMLPETELY stock fuel system because at this point upgrading is not necessary on the fuel system and playing with the fuel pressure only counteracts me trying to lean out the fuel by turning up the boost. I have NO bogging down low and it pulls hard as hell up to redline (though I normally shift at 6200rpm as that throws me back at 3350rpm where the turbo stays fully spooled and I get the most out of the next gear).
I decided to spend my money instead of fuel upgrades on ignition upgrades and an intercooler. The intercooler keeps the compressed air temps down preventing detonation AND creating a denser air mass for combustion...compressing air heats it and hot air doesn't like to ignite happily.
on top of that I went with a full msd ignition so I could get a hot enough spark to gap the plugs wider than stock (.046 stock and I run .060). Getting a larger spark for longer (MSD box keeps the spark going for a full 20 degress of crankshaft rotation) allows for MORE of the available air/fuel to burn creating more power....not only that but it makes cold cranking and idling sooo much better
yes, once I go past the blue box and stock MAP sensor's limits I fully intend to upgrade my fuel system but for now it's totally not needed....probably the one thing I'll never upgrade as long as I have an SOHC engine is the fuel rail as it's completely a "bling bling" mod. the stock rail as ugly as it looks will flow 500hp...why do you think those aftermarket rails simply go into the factory fuel lines
if they were going to flow more you'd have to replace the lines all the way back to the tank with lines that could ALSO flow that much fuel...restrictions, it's all about restrictions....
no, fuel pressure is unaffected, only injector cycle is affected according to the voltage read from the MAP sensor. Fuel pressure is affected by the fuel pressure regulator which reads from manifold pressure via a vacuum line and not an electrical source.
I run approximately 9.5psi on a COMLPETELY stock fuel system because at this point upgrading is not necessary on the fuel system and playing with the fuel pressure only counteracts me trying to lean out the fuel by turning up the boost. I have NO bogging down low and it pulls hard as hell up to redline (though I normally shift at 6200rpm as that throws me back at 3350rpm where the turbo stays fully spooled and I get the most out of the next gear).
I decided to spend my money instead of fuel upgrades on ignition upgrades and an intercooler. The intercooler keeps the compressed air temps down preventing detonation AND creating a denser air mass for combustion...compressing air heats it and hot air doesn't like to ignite happily.
on top of that I went with a full msd ignition so I could get a hot enough spark to gap the plugs wider than stock (.046 stock and I run .060). Getting a larger spark for longer (MSD box keeps the spark going for a full 20 degress of crankshaft rotation) allows for MORE of the available air/fuel to burn creating more power....not only that but it makes cold cranking and idling sooo much better
yes, once I go past the blue box and stock MAP sensor's limits I fully intend to upgrade my fuel system but for now it's totally not needed....probably the one thing I'll never upgrade as long as I have an SOHC engine is the fuel rail as it's completely a "bling bling" mod. the stock rail as ugly as it looks will flow 500hp...why do you think those aftermarket rails simply go into the factory fuel lines
if they were going to flow more you'd have to replace the lines all the way back to the tank with lines that could ALSO flow that much fuel...restrictions, it's all about restrictions....
09-16-2003, 06:16 AM
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Re: blue box and fuel pumps (stackz)
awesome ****. im happy i got a straight answer. im gunna crank up the boost to 8 lbs and just run it. thats after the new clutch instrall. fun stuff. anyway thanx guys
09-16-2003, 08:38 AM
#16
at the jetties fishin'
Re: blue box and fuel pumps (Hammett)
right around 200hp, but I am intercooled. However, I have a completely stock exhaust system which I know is restricting exhaust flow keeping it from spooling as fast as it can and robbin me of some power.
just haven't found an aftermarket setup I like enough to put on my car yet
skier, please make sure you have functional air/fuel ratio gauge of some sort when you do that though. You never know when a part will crap out and the higher the boost, the leaner you'll burn and the faster you'll melt something if something DOES crap out on you. the air/fuel gauge'll let you know to shut down before kaboom
just haven't found an aftermarket setup I like enough to put on my car yet
skier, please make sure you have functional air/fuel ratio gauge of some sort when you do that though. You never know when a part will crap out and the higher the boost, the leaner you'll burn and the faster you'll melt something if something DOES crap out on you. the air/fuel gauge'll let you know to shut down before kaboom
09-17-2003, 11:11 AM
#19
at the jetties fishin'
Re: (ScandalousCivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ScandalousCivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Honda MAP sensor is only good to 11 psi</TD></TR></TABLE>
mine was crapping out after 10.5psi so don't just go by what it's rated at...it all depends on how it processes it's signal.
mine was crapping out after 10.5psi so don't just go by what it's rated at...it all depends on how it processes it's signal.
09-17-2003, 11:52 AM
#20
at the jetties fishin'
Re: blue box and fuel pumps (skierGT)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by skierGT »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what gauge would u recomend? all the ones ive seen are just a bunch of red and green lights which dont tell much just look pretty at night.</TD></TR></TABLE>
lol, they tell you more than you think man. red=lean yellow=stoic green=rich
underload you'll read green (should!) cruising, the lights will bounce around from green-yellow-red due to the ecu constantly cutting the injectors off (the fuel saver feature), when you shift or toss in neutral, decelerate...you'll either go lean or lose signal all together also because it cuts injector pulse at this time for fuel saving purposes (that and you don't want to ADD fuel when trying to slow down).
yes, they do look pretty but unless you want to design your own wideband o2 air/fuel gauge (which you'll need a wideband o2 sensor for and appropriate hardware, etc) you can do just fine with a narrowband. besides my wideband looks just like a narrowband cept it has MORE pretty led lights.
There are some digital air/fuel ratio gauges out there but I honestly don't like the prices/performance of them compared to the analog LED light ones.
lol, they tell you more than you think man. red=lean yellow=stoic green=rich
underload you'll read green (should!) cruising, the lights will bounce around from green-yellow-red due to the ecu constantly cutting the injectors off (the fuel saver feature), when you shift or toss in neutral, decelerate...you'll either go lean or lose signal all together also because it cuts injector pulse at this time for fuel saving purposes (that and you don't want to ADD fuel when trying to slow down
).yes, they do look pretty but unless you want to design your own wideband o2 air/fuel gauge (which you'll need a wideband o2 sensor for and appropriate hardware, etc) you can do just fine with a narrowband. besides my wideband looks just like a narrowband cept it has MORE pretty led lights.
There are some digital air/fuel ratio gauges out there but I honestly don't like the prices/performance of them compared to the analog LED light ones.
09-18-2003, 06:29 AM
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Re: blue box and fuel pumps (stackz)
my point is just that its bouncing around so much how do u know when ur runnin lean or too rich when it pegs there and stays red or green because normally it doesnt pick a spot like u said so pretty much by the time the gauge lets you know anything either youll blow ur engine or bog it out.
09-18-2003, 01:09 PM
#24
at the jetties fishin'
Re: blue box and fuel pumps (ScandalousCivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ScandalousCivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I thought Greddy kits came with bigger injectors, 310cc for the gsr.</TD></TR></TABLE>
yes, because for some reason si and gsr injectors don't like to be put in open loop and have a tendance to short out....so greddy just went ahead and supplied better injectors with the kits anyway.
as for the air/fuel gauge...your concern is when under load only...rest of the time it's just pretty lights as the ecu works the injector pulses.
if under load say, you get in the red...that's bad, very bad...not enough fuel, you're running lean...green is good, stoic you kinda gotta worry about since you should be running the richest under load anyway.
yes, because for some reason si and gsr injectors don't like to be put in open loop and have a tendance to short out....so greddy just went ahead and supplied better injectors with the kits anyway.
as for the air/fuel gauge...your concern is when under load only...rest of the time it's just pretty lights as the ecu works the injector pulses.
if under load say, you get in the red...that's bad, very bad...not enough fuel, you're running lean...green is good, stoic you kinda gotta worry about since you should be running the richest under load anyway.
10-08-2003, 08:51 AM
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Re: blue box and fuel pumps (stackz)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stackz »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
no, fuel pressure is unaffected, only injector cycle is affected according to the voltage read from the MAP sensor. Fuel pressure is affected by the fuel pressure regulator which reads from manifold pressure via a vacuum line and not an electrical source.
I run approximately 9.5psi on a COMLPETELY stock fuel system because at this point upgrading is not necessary on the fuel system and playing with the fuel pressure only counteracts me trying to lean out the fuel by turning up the boost. I have NO bogging down low and it pulls hard as hell up to redline (though I normally shift at 6200rpm as that throws me back at 3350rpm where the turbo stays fully spooled and I get the most out of the next gear).
I decided to spend my money instead of fuel upgrades on ignition upgrades and an intercooler. The intercooler keeps the compressed air temps down preventing detonation AND creating a denser air mass for combustion...compressing air heats it and hot air doesn't like to ignite happily.
on top of that I went with a full msd ignition so I could get a hot enough spark to gap the plugs wider than stock (.046 stock and I run .060). Getting a larger spark for longer (MSD box keeps the spark going for a full 20 degress of crankshaft rotation) allows for MORE of the available air/fuel to burn creating more power....not only that but it makes cold cranking and idling sooo much better
yes, once I go past the blue box and stock MAP sensor's limits I fully intend to upgrade my fuel system but for now it's totally not needed....probably the one thing I'll never upgrade as long as I have an SOHC engine is the fuel rail as it's completely a "bling bling" mod. the stock rail as ugly as it looks will flow 500hp...why do you think those aftermarket rails simply go into the factory fuel lines if they were going to flow more you'd have to replace the lines all the way back to the tank with lines that could ALSO flow that much fuel...restrictions, it's all about restrictions....</TD></TR></TABLE>
Okay, I upped my boost to about 6.5 psi. I'm getting detonation above 5500 rpm. what should I do? I'm running stock timing, ngk bkr6e plugs, stock pump and injectors and a B&M FPR set at 41 psi @ idle. Is it a fuel issue or timing issue?
no, fuel pressure is unaffected, only injector cycle is affected according to the voltage read from the MAP sensor. Fuel pressure is affected by the fuel pressure regulator which reads from manifold pressure via a vacuum line and not an electrical source.
I run approximately 9.5psi on a COMLPETELY stock fuel system because at this point upgrading is not necessary on the fuel system and playing with the fuel pressure only counteracts me trying to lean out the fuel by turning up the boost. I have NO bogging down low and it pulls hard as hell up to redline (though I normally shift at 6200rpm as that throws me back at 3350rpm where the turbo stays fully spooled and I get the most out of the next gear).
I decided to spend my money instead of fuel upgrades on ignition upgrades and an intercooler. The intercooler keeps the compressed air temps down preventing detonation AND creating a denser air mass for combustion...compressing air heats it and hot air doesn't like to ignite happily.
on top of that I went with a full msd ignition so I could get a hot enough spark to gap the plugs wider than stock (.046 stock and I run .060). Getting a larger spark for longer (MSD box keeps the spark going for a full 20 degress of crankshaft rotation) allows for MORE of the available air/fuel to burn creating more power....not only that but it makes cold cranking and idling sooo much better
yes, once I go past the blue box and stock MAP sensor's limits I fully intend to upgrade my fuel system but for now it's totally not needed....probably the one thing I'll never upgrade as long as I have an SOHC engine is the fuel rail as it's completely a "bling bling" mod. the stock rail as ugly as it looks will flow 500hp...why do you think those aftermarket rails simply go into the factory fuel lines
if they were going to flow more you'd have to replace the lines all the way back to the tank with lines that could ALSO flow that much fuel...restrictions, it's all about restrictions....</TD></TR></TABLE>Okay, I upped my boost to about 6.5 psi. I'm getting detonation above 5500 rpm. what should I do? I'm running stock timing, ngk bkr6e plugs, stock pump and injectors and a B&M FPR set at 41 psi @ idle. Is it a fuel issue or timing issue?