<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GiNuWiNe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What's this about a d16y8 head being ported only flowing marginally better than a d16z6 head, any truth to this?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No. They flow about the same (stock) from the tests I've seen.

 

Anyone know if the A6 oil pan bolts up to the Z6?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EnzoSpeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

No. They flow about the same (stock) from the tests I've seen.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Z6 vs Y8? Junk flow numbers. The shear from the recessed intake divider makes it worth donkey *****.

A good comparo is a 260 cfm @ 1/2" lift unported DSM 4G63 no-power-making pile of swill head vs a 230 cfm unported B16 head... or, expletive it, let's drop the flow numbers further down and compare DSM head to unported LS head. Look at what an LS puts out boosted, with less displacement than a DSM.

Now, do you want to talk to me some more about flow numbers, or about flow? You see what I'm getting at here?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Justin Jones &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Bisi used an A6 head on his drag car, they have smaller ports, smaller valves</TD></TR></TABLE>

Small ports are not exactly bad, the valve is an obsticle. Valves could do with being bigger; no shrouding issues at the 0.5mm o/s sizes used in later D16.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Justin Jones &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Y8 oil pumps are crap out of the box, the pre-OBD-2 pump has been successfully put on a Y8 bottom end, search for mike belmen's threads, he made a post in the technical forum about it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Mike Belben is what is commonly referred to as a hardcore ************.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by zcgod &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">dohc d16 is the best for a turbo setup makes good power and you can use all d series parts just need some mods on some of them.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, and no. Stock out of the box, having had A6, Z6, and DOHC ZC in Atlee's 91 hatchcrap all with the same exact turbo setup on it, I have to say stock out of the box ZC is king dick of D-series. Nothing spooled quicker, or made more power, in the D-series family. However, the ports and such aren't that great and it's hard to work them past that point compared to A6 and Z6.

While I'm on the subject, the comment about ZC not being good past 7500 rpms due to rocker arm design? Again.... yes, and no. ZC's essentially the same setup as found on the LS, pretty much the same cyl head just done slightly bigger. 8000 rpm is no problem with LS head, 8500 is pushing it but has been done with some reliability before rocker arms go flinging. (At that point, look at what the SR20 boys do for high rpms) However, the ZC may very well be limited to 7500 rpms... the exhaust valve in those engines is noticeably heavier than the 1.5mm larger LS unit(!?), which incidentally has the same shaft diameter and overall length, as does the 1mm o/s LS intake valve. So, ZC's heavy exhaust valve, 7500 rpms, gotcha.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Small ports are not exactly bad, the valve is an obsticle. Valves could do with being bigger; no shrouding issues at the 0.5mm o/s sizes used in later D16.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah nothing wrong with a small port BUT every engine has it's optimum cross sectional port area, and with the rod ratio of the D16 taken into account, I don't want some teeny tiny A6 port cramping my styles. Even moreso with an aftermarket cam with a faster ramp rate. No shortage of gas velocity with a 1.52 rod ratio spinning an easy 9 grand, so lets let that little ****** breathe, no?

I have no idea why you like the OBD0 port more than the OBD1 port, so I went out to my garage to look at my D series head collection... it's been a while since I looked at one of my D16A6 castings, I was guessing that I must have forgot the small A6 port had a higher floor than the D16Z, but it doesn't, they're the same pretty much so it's not like a ported A6 is gonna have a better short turn radius... Then I measured the depth of the port dividers... and the Z6 has the divider like almost half an inch (closer to 1cm) to the manifold flange... plus it has more CSA... plus it has bigger valves and a smaller chamber... So what in the expletive does the A6 have going for it? no VTEC?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Justin Jones &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah nothing wrong with a small port BUT every engine has it's optimum cross sectional port area, and with the rod ratio of the D16 taken into account, I don't want some teeny tiny A6 port cramping my styles.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Meh. I'm with mototuneguy on the port size/velocity issue.

Just look at StyleTeg's semi-built LS vs the ITR he dyno tuned back to back with... same peak power, but in every other respect the LS had MUCH MORE power than the ITR. Yet... everyone and their momma just knows B-VTEC flows better, regardless of what power level you are shooting for.

I've had similar results with small port 90-91 LS heads vs 93/94/97 model ones, in a boosted application.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Justin Jones &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So what in the expletive does the A6 have going for it? no VTEC? </TD></TR></TABLE>

That, too.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You see what I'm getting at here?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, no, I never do.

Why are you saying flow numbers don't matter? And how is the recessed divider detrimental?

 

What exactly makes the d16y8 oil pump no good at high rpm? Is there a solution to this... like maybe using a different d16 oil pump?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turboEGhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Stay clear of the Y8 blocks as the oil pumps in them are sub standard at high revs.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EnzoSpeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Why are you saying flow numbers don't matter? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not saying they don't matter. The Lord God Almighty's physics says they don't matter. There's a lot more going on in an intake port, or, notably, across a valve face, than cfm flowed. I yelled at a DSMtard for a bit in the big Holset thread, in re the difference between flow numbers and actual quality of flow.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EnzoSpeed &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And how is the recessed divider detrimental?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why is a shallow cut merge collector turbo manifold a good thing? Why not run the (intake or exhaust) charge at a brick wall, and expect to make one million horsepower, because we have a VTEC solenoid?

Let's go at it the other direction than a turbo manifold's collector, let's consider the inlet port... truly, a divergent collector can deal with a much larger angle of exit than a convergent collector's angle of entry before flow starts shearing off and getting itself completely, hopelessly fucked. The recessed divider in the Y8 head ends up being inefficient, because of how the last minute divider is a bit *too* sharp.

Hope I'm making some sense here, the recently legallized high gravity beer I've been swilling has me all giddy + such.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Meh. I'm with mototuneguy on the port size/velocity issue.

Just look at StyleTeg's semi-built LS vs the ITR he dyno tuned back to back with... same peak power, but in every other respect the LS had MUCH MORE power than the ITR. Yet... everyone and their momma just knows B-VTEC flows better, regardless of what power level you are shooting for.

I've had similar results with small port 90-91 LS heads vs 93/94/97 model ones, in a boosted application.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

mototuneguy? what does he say about CSA and port velocity? I've heard of that guy before... lol, not exactly in the highest regard. A lot of people think that guy's kinda half retarded...

 

i did some searching, and found http://mototuneusa.com/super_sonic_nozzle.htm

that guy really is a ****** piece of work. nevermind, i don't want to discuss porting with you anymore, i have nothing to gain from this.

 

haha...motoman is funny...sarcasm and what not

 

I dont know about that motowhatever guy. He's more about the controversy he creates than the engines.

 

which is why you KNOW he's a smart guy

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Justin Jones &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i did some searching, and found http://mototuneusa.com/super_sonic_nozzle.htm

that guy really is a ****** piece of work. nevermind, i don't want to discuss porting with you anymore, i have nothing to gain from this. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't particularly care for your tone, or your insinuations. I'm more than happy to explain my case in detail if you would ask specifics, but you insist on being a closed minded asshat as well as quite rude; I can reciprocate if that is what you desire. Who are you? Ah, yes, no one of consequence. You may not care for mototuneguy, but he has verifiable results and wins from his work, that you - with zero experience - so casually disregard. What experience do you have, again, particularly in the motorcycle example I provided and you sneer at? Ah, yes, none.

Now, sirrah, I will proceed to hand you your *** using verifiable statements from people of repute, published FACTS, and toss in a few 30+ year old engines as examples.


Open up the latest edition of Performance bikes, look for the interview with Tony Scott.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tony Scott &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Chasing big power figures for marketing reasons has an adverse effect on engine design. Most Japanese sports bikes have inlet ports that are way too big. They give a lot of gas volume for peak power but less gas speed and so much less midrange. I fill in the ports by up to 3mm which improves speed, and therefore midrange without sacrificing top end.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Now, let's further compound the situation by quoting Brad Z of RLZ, goes around these parts as MAX_CFM. boosted94cx was standing next to me when he said this, and I'm sure Brad himself would be happy to repeat it for you if you so kindly asked.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Brad &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Honda (car) heads are motorcycle heads. Same thing.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sure, Brad doesn't fill Honduh ports, but then again he takes + ports heads that bolt to bottom ends with 30% more displacement than what they came off of. A big bump in displacement is a great cure for a lazy port, if you ask me or anyone else who is a firm believer in redneck common sense.

Are you aware of the BOSS 302 and 351 heads? You can argue intent on the part of Ford, but the SOP when "porting" those was to fill in the intake port with epoxy and reshape. Now, on the GM side... and I'm going to enjoy this one... we have an example that you cannot argue intent on the part of the OEM - swirl port heads (used in certain engine combos, say 383 stroker) with "insufficient" cross sectional area to support the power they generate (and no decent angle of approach to the valve to explain it, like the small port Yates/Roush heads that flow 400+ cfm at .800 lift, where tall intake manifold mojo plays no small part). I'd discuss DeLaval nozzles with you, and how efficient port velocity can exceed a fraction of Mach in speshul cases, but I'm pretty sure you haven't the math to follow me.




Modified by J. Davis at 4:37 AM 3/15/2006

 

It occurs to me that the current trend in HD motorcycles is to fill the intake port volume 10% with epoxy, for huge gains in midrange and modest ones in top end. When you're done, they almost feel as powerful as the lesser jap cruiser bikes

I can tell you're impressed.

 

Over time, certain modifications come into vogue because they work very good in certain applications, suddenly a few dumb people start blindly thinking they work good in all applications.

here's a quote from Darin Morgan, of Reher Morrisson (so in other words here's a quote from someone with more credentials on cylinder heads than anyone in the import industry) on the subject of this Mototuneguy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Darin Morgan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">UUUUUMMMM, Yea, right, What ever. The guy is referring to pseudo science yet he himself has built a web site around the very pseudo science he claims to be able to discount! Its 25% truth mixed in with fantasy and ignorance.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So if you don't put any equity into my opinion (that's fine, it's reciprocal) at least put some equity into the opinion of someone with some weight on the subject, someone who ports pro stock heads for a living. In forms of racing like this where millions of dollars are spent every year you'd think he (and the rest of the actual racing world) would have found what mototuneman or whatever has 'discovered' on their own... but no, these 5 or 6 figure cylinder heads really could use a little mototuneman-love.


cuz it works on one engine, doesn't mean it works on every ******* engine. pop open A BOOK and find out why it works, instead of telling everyone it works.

 

Darin Morgan is a smart man.....but, there are ppl in the import industry that carry just as much expierence with them as he.....

 

88-89 D16a6 engines have steel main caps..To bad the stock rods are so weak..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Justin Jones &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Over time, certain modifications come into vogue because they work very good in certain applications, suddenly a few dumb people start blindly thinking they work good in all applications.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I never said that smaller intake ports were better - I stated that they could be better, and that your eyeballing a red cunthair's difference between A6 and Z6 port cross section has nothing to do with anything because CSA is a tiny tiny factor when considering a complex and dynamic system.

I could care less about the validity of everything mototuneguy has ever said, I just said I was in with him on the small ports working in relation to many Honduh applications. I provided commonplace knowledge that the intake ports on modern jap sportbikes ARE oversized, and that the ones on B-series VTEC engines are as well - when an LS with the same CR and approx "the same" cams as ITR engine, outperforms said ITR engine *considerably*, in a commonplace easy to replicate and/or merely search for dyno sheets combo - I would say I have a good ******* point and maybe you should listen to me!!


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Justin Jones &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">cuz it works on one engine, doesn't mean it works on every ******* engine. pop open A BOOK and find out why it works, instead of telling everyone it works.</TD></TR></TABLE>

LOL, you are cute. Check my watched topics, and read the spark plug thread. I linked to Ricardo (primary ******* source, baby), and mentioned Glassman whose work flies in the face of commonly accepted hot-air-heat pushing the piston down engine theory. I'd been in college for four years by the time I was your age, Justin, you're preaching to the choir.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by J. Davis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I never said that smaller intake ports were better - I stated that they could be better, and that your eyeballing a red cunthair's difference between A6 and Z6 port cross section has nothing to do with anything because CSA is a tiny tiny factor when considering a complex and dynamic system.

I could care less about the validity of everything mototuneguy has ever said, I just said I was in with him on the small ports working in relation to many Honduh applications. I provided commonplace knowledge that the intake ports on modern jap sportbikes ARE oversized, and that the ones on B-series VTEC engines are as well - when an LS with the same CR and approx "the same" cams as ITR engine, outperforms said ITR engine *considerably*, in a commonplace easy to replicate and/or merely search for dyno sheets combo - I would say I have a good ******* point and maybe you should listen to me!!


LOL, you are cute. Check my watched topics, and read the spark plug thread. I linked to Ricardo (primary ******* source, baby), and mentioned Glassman whose work flies in the face of commonly accepted hot-air-heat pushing the piston down engine theory. I'd been in college for four years by the time I was your age, Justin, you're preaching to the choir. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You got so far off topic, citing honda motorcycles and B series and etc... Yeah, small ports are great. It works great on lots of engines, that have big ports to begin with and longer rod ratios... The D16 has neither. So go build a D16A6 headed car with stock ports and D16Z6 sized valves, and I'll bolt on a stock Z6 head to whip it's nancy ***. Not just because of size which you have time and again tried to illuminate but shape as well, as I mentioned earlier the D16A6 head you prefer has a wall divider roughly 1cm further down the line than the Z6...

Henry Ricardo would probably agree with me. Henry Ricardo would probably cockslap mototuneguy, too.

anywho, who's this Glassman ************? I want to find out more. Name doesn't ring a bell...

This is fun! I could E-argue for days at this rate!

 

Go phone Larry Widmer if you want a second opinion. Oh no that's right Joey Davis don't like Larry...

 

registered

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Justin Jones &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Go phone Larry Widmer if you want a second opinion. Oh no that's right Joey Davis don't like Larry... </TD></TR></TABLE>

who does?

i mean, considering they guy has done nothing but lie to everyone for as long as i can remember his name....and for soemone who has yet to have a really fast car run his parts...i don't even see reason to mention him

it's also childish of you to bring his name into this....was that your last resort wen you've got nothing inteligent to say?

 

I'm the poster child for incapacitated by ADHD. Get used to it. I accomplished the point of defending port filling for many common motorcycles, which had you all up in arms calling bullshit... and now I've got you talking.

And, yes, D16Z6 vs D16A6 is not motorcycle cyl heads, nor is it LS vs VTEC cyl heads on stock geometry B-series bottom ends. BUT I'm pretty confident in re A6 head superiority. If Z6 were all that and a bowl of grits, removing VTEC reciprocating bits and blocking an oil passage would be nothing for someone like Bisi, who engineers everything to an extreme degree. The few clean or fresh D16A6 I've seen putting out hp per psi figures of LS stands behind that, as well.

His name is Harry, Justin. Sir Harry, actually, he was knighted by the Queen for being a hardcore ************.

As for mototuneguy, I'd probably buy him a beer and listen to him a bit. I don't believe everything he says, but I also don't buy everything I read by "experts" with -phd after their names. mototuneguy, at least, is guaranteed to be amusing company.

Irvin Glassman, combustion engineer. Not to be confused with internal combustion engine engineer; Glassman studies the actual nature of combustion, as opposed to the convenient rationalizations Taylor came up with to spoonfeed modern ICE engineers. Glassman has a number of books he has authored or co-authored with the word combustion in the title, but you specifically want the one that is just titled Combustion. $100+ new, but a quick perusal of http://www.biblio.com shows it used for $21-38 from a variety of different places on the globe (calc shipping accordingly).

Combustion is surprisingly readable for people not big on chemistry, or engineering. Some of his bits are VERY applicable to the argument that gasoline engines aren't Carnot (or whatever) cycle, but Harris cycle. Also, the powdered metals and metal slurries as fuel are *fascinating*.

See? I TOLD you that your not wanting to talk to me anymore was a silly attitude.

It's more complex than that - everything is always more complex than you think it is. If I seem to go on a tangent, hold on, I'm going somewhere with all this. I want you to see the evolution of my perspective.

I think the man is capable of 90% of what he claims he is, and always listened to what he had to say... if the BBS is archived anywhere you can see I posted in a very limited fashion, was respectful, and asked good questions. On the other hand, certain things like the hyped to heaven vaporware blower, hyped to heaven ego and abilities, overt salesmanship disguised as being your friend (guess it prepared me for HT, huh?), just didn't rub me right. I also had a good dose of the kill your gods mentality - as long as I set another man above me, I'd only be second rate.

I was on the Hybrid Forum back in '97, before the Alley, and shortly after I was on the Endyn forum's first incarnation pretty regular, back in those days. Fast forward... hell, 6-7 years since I've been on the Endyn forum? I had a go at being a businessman last year, I sucked at it; I've let several people down due to being a complete spacecase. Organization is difficult for me, especially when you're dealing with Honduh *kids* in the 17-24 age group who typically don't know what they want, have communications skills as bad as mine, poor manners (most were genuinely NICE, they were just raised with no manners), and unreal expectations. The phone calls start at 6 am, and didn't stop until 3 am, with the exception of a brief pause from 9am-5pm. That's only Monday thru Friday, weekends were nonstop hell. It got real old, real quick, and frayed what attention span I possess. Today, I can understand why Mister Endyn is crabby sometimes, this is a hard market even when you're a good businessman!

So, this last weekend I was up at a friend's shop, drinking liquor and BSing. Turns out Larry Trimnal (local guy) has Mister Endyn building his Piglude engine. I told him he'd be happy with the work, I didn't even have to think about it before I said it. Larry Trimnal has a rapport with Mister Endyn, and will get good work, at a fair price. It was funny to see a heavy 91 Piglude Si with a bastard-*** platform naturally aspirated B21A1, cobbled together out of second rate parts and some mojo, run 8.4-8.5's in the 1/8th. I'm chuckling evilly to the mental image of old man Trimnal breaking it off real good in some poor bastard, and being there to watch it, and hopefully bet money on it before the suckers catch on.

Yes, I burnt some bridges along my way. At some point I came to the conclusion good salesmen are a neccesary evil. I'm glad that the majority of the big name ones here in Honduhland are offering good parts and services, it is NOT like that in some other car circles.

PS - If you still want me to phone Mister Endyn, you'll have to give me the number.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted94cx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">who does?

i mean, considering they guy has done nothing but lie to everyone for as long as i can remember his name....and for soemone who has yet to have a really fast car run his parts...i don't even see reason to mention him

it's also childish of you to bring his name into this....was that your last resort wen you've got nothing inteligent to say?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Rob calling someone childish. Fascinating.

I think Arturbo liked the way Mister Endyn treated him, and Mister Endyn gets two red carpets rolled out for him when he visits R-M - one for each foot. That speaks enough. He's an old man, regardless of ability I don't think he puts out as many heads and engines as he used to due to his health, and selling parts is his main trade these days. I know a LOT of guys with rollerwaves.

edit: I *know* why you don't like him, Rob. I think I understand the motives and egos involved well enough to draw my own conclusions, but I'm not going to comment. Not being in the middle of it, I know 2nd to 4th hand accounts, and hearsay. *shrug*