SOHCex20

I'm running the SAFC and DSM 450 injectors, and my settings are:
1000: -45
2000: -42
3000: -39
4000-8000: -35

Those are on both high and low settings. My question is that on partial throttle in 5th gear, the crossover from 2900 to 3000 rpm is quite jerky. I'm not exactly sure why it would do that but no matter the setting it will jerky slightly but then the rest is fine. I figured it had to do with the slight spooling and not that much air being forced in compared to the fuel being dumped in. I could be way wrong, but if anyone has any info on the situation that would be great. Also, I see some people put their throttle points at either 10% and 50% and others have them at 71% and 72%. I have mine currently at 71-72%, just seeing what the best setting should be at. I'll be getting it tuned correctly next week but just want to know exactly whats goin on.

Syner-G-Racing LLC

why dont you just spend 12 bucks for the chipset and run uberdata? I didnt think people were still messing with the hack.

Smokinsax

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syner-G-Racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why dont you just spend 12 bucks for the chipset and run uberdata? I didnt think people were still messing with the hack. </TD></TR></TABLE>
probably because he would have to convert to OBD1 and it would cost a lot more than $12 to run Uberdata

boostincoupe

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syner-G-Racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why dont you just spend 12 bucks for the chipset and run uberdata? I didnt think people were still messing with the hack. </TD></TR></TABLE>

12 bucks? LOL.

I love how people are so quick to hype uberdata by playing down the startup costs so much.

"It's free, y0!"

Smokinsax

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostincoupe &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">12 bucks? LOL.

"It's free, y0!" </TD></TR></TABLE>
HAHA!!

Syner-G-Racing LLC

its cheaper than an afc! Im currently running hondata, but, Ive set up quite a few uberdata setups.

12 bucks for the chipset, 75-150 for an obd 1 ecu, and I can make a adapter harness for about 15 bucks. it typicaly cost me about 150 bucks to setup uberdata and of course I have my fees that are added, but, if you have the expertise, it is, in fact cheaper than wasting 250 on a afc!

I am no where near a uber ****, I was just offering a suggestion (maybe he didnt know of this option)

all I can say is that running the hack on a 99 turbo civic is just stupid, unless you didnt know any better, so how about we educate the guy instead of bashing on uberdata...if you have a better solution for the money post it up instead of talking ****

r6samson

$15 for a harness? Everyone else's are $75. Okay. Then ecu in my town is $100. Then let's see chip set $25. Burn1 chip burner $95. Hassle with learning and tuning EVERYTHING yourself. That's just gay. For everything else in your tuner turbo dreams there's **********.


JP

Syner-G-Racing LLC

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by r6samson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">$15 for a harness? Everyone else's are $75. Okay. Then ecu in my town is $100. Then let's see chip set $25. Burn1 chip burner $95. Hassle with learning and tuning EVERYTHING yourself. That's just gay. For everything else in your tuner turbo dreams there's **********.


JP</TD></TR></TABLE>

well first thing is...that I make my own harness adapter, $15 is the price for the ecu connectors and the splices. you can go to radio shack and buy the 74hc373 for $1.25 along with the resistors, and caps. as far as the eprom you can go to your local computer shop and buy two of them for $5...or lets see...you could go to http://www.moates.net/product_...id=42 and buy the whole kit for $15, as I posted earlier.
and yes if you want to tune it yourself then you would want to buy a burner and something like the ostrich to emulate the 29c eprom to enable you to tune on the fly, but since its such a hassle to learn how to tune it...oh, and "gay". I doubt you would know that. by the way why the F@#$ do you even post in forced induction if everything is such a hassle? cause if you where running forced induction you would be alittle more interested in the DIY concept. oh, now you can go back to your "turbo tuner dream" and masterbate to the rest of this post. freaking dork

SOHCex20

back to the hack question, i got my safc for 150, injectors for 40, and inline resistors from radio shack, works great, only thing is, just wondering what that slight jerking would be in 5th gear from 2900-3000. No other gear, no other rpm, just there. Could it be because its a lower rpm and so much air is trying to be put into the combustion chamber and the car just cant compensate for the mixture that is going on? I dont know exactly, just a curious question. I dont think its a big deal, I'm not detonating or anything, anyways, no thanks on uber, dont feel like going OBD1 and spending all that money getting it tuned, figuing out how it works, blah blah blah. Just wanted somethign that works good, and i have heard more good things about the hack than bad, only because in most cases people just neglect to do things right and rush everything, or push it too much.

r6samson

Hassle? Who wants to hassle with anything at all? Hence fast food and tv dinners. So for me Uberdata on an EK isn't very bright to do. Oh, I'm sorry to that you didn't get my humor in that you must never have seen anyone or anything mock mastercard and substitute in masturbaite. "For all your ..." See now? And if your splicing wires, yea that's hassle and gay. Not to mention if you do Uberdata on an OBD2 car and then let someone else do it that's like painting one side of a house. That really isn't DIY if someone else does it for you in the end. I just don't trust myself in tuning with Uberdata and my aspirations aren't 400whp so a kit and afc/fmu is sufficent for me.


JP

Syner-G-Racing LLC

hey what ever makes your monkey jump...all Im saying is that if your gonna put the effort into turbo charging a car you should put forth a little more effort to run it efficiently. Im sure you are both aware of why the hack works and what it does to your timing. Im not realy sure why you think being a journey man electrician is gay or having the expertise to build your own engine is a hassle.

and as far as "doing everything right" SOHCex20...tricking your map sensor, and hidding boost, is far from "right". the hack is exactly as labled, a "hack", "cheat", "trick" what ever word you choose its essientialy lieing to your ecu to get what you want. I just recommended maybe you should just give it a new program. if you think plugging up an adapter harness to a different ecu is a hassle wait till you have to rebuild your block. dont take my comments offensive, I just want to make sure you understand what your doing. as far as your original question check your fuel point for 2000-3000 rpm try setting it at 500 rpm increments and see if that smooths it out. here maybe this will clear up a few things for ya

With the vafc hack, maximum amount of boost before 11 psi when the map sensor errors, is dictated by the injector size you choose to run. 450 cc injectors are popular with the vafc hack because they will allow you to scale the map sensor voltage nearest 3.09 volts with room to increase the amount of fuel needed above the percent differance between the injectors. This lets you clear the greatest timing advance section of the ignition table and lets you create a close 14:1 air/fuel ratio per psi of boost.

Mathematically heres an example.

Say you want to run 10 pounds of boost and you bought the correct 450cc injectors for this.
The differance of flow is 46% because (240/450)-1= .46
Then because larger injectors have to be compensated for latency we subtract about 5% for 450cc's leaving us with a 41% fuel difference
This means at -41% setting in your VAFC your 450's are giving you the same fuel your 240's were.
Now the map sensor goes into limp mode at 3.1 volts so you need to stay below that, and 10 psi is about 4.7 volts.......... so 4.7-(4.7x.41)=2.89
This shows us that 450's give us enough room to reduce the map signal below 3.1 volts with enough differance in volts between 2.77 and 3.1 to increase the fuel %cuts to accomodate for boost.

So what we do in terms of setting the vafc is this. We know the differance in flow between 450's and 240's is -41% and at idle air/fuel ration does not change with the turbo. So at idle, if you run 450's you will set your VAFC to -41%. As your rpms increase you want to add fuel to compensate for boost you could be making at those rpms. So on average, people add 1% per 1,000rpm's above 3,000rpm where boost begins to build with average sized compressor housings and wheels. You don't really want to go past a 5-6% overall increase though because you will be increasing your flow differential at the same time the ecu is increasing pulse duration. This can make for a really rich combustion.

Here is a good example of settings for a b16 running 450's and VTEC set at 4,500 rpm:
Same settings for wide and narrow with hi and lo
1000 -41%
1500 -41%
2000 -41%
2500 -41%
3000 -40%
3500 -40%
4000 -39%
4500 -38%
5000 -37%
5500 -36%
6000 -36%
7000 -35%
8300 -35%

Do you see how you want to transition into the air fuel ratio gradually? If you just set it at -35% across the board you are running entirely too rich at idle and anything below 4k roughly. Different setups will build boost at different rpms so this is just an example of something average.

Once you grasp the concept you'll notice some issues. You will see why the VAFC is a piece of **** for spirited city driving. It works for cruising below 3,500rpm or full throttle runs and thats about it. Otherwise all your settings that you input so that you have a correct a/f mixture when flooring it......creates entirely too rich a/f's when you're just trying to cruise around and you just happen to go past 3,500rpm with anything less then half throttle on the average sized compressor housing, on a small displacement motor. You will also see why to run safe with the vafc you should run 10 psi, so that your fuel correction values aren't putting you dead center of the highest ignition advance on the table. You also should slightly compensate your idle and low end power by retarding your base TDC timing down to about 12 degrees instead of stock 16-18.

SOHC_MShue

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by r6samson &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">$15 for a harness? Everyone else's are $75. Okay. Then ecu in my town is $100. Then let's see chip set $25. Burn1 chip burner $95. Hassle with learning and tuning EVERYTHING yourself. That's just gay. For everything else in your tuner turbo dreams there's **********.


JP</TD></TR></TABLE>
you are worthless. I can't imagine learining to tune your ecu on your own so you can get a decent tune without spending an assload of money

SOHCex20

I understand what you are saying about the hack in general. I retarted my timing to help with the rediculous advancement the afc produces, I'm not looking into making any crazy numbers on my car, something to have fun with, yet make it to work and back and so on. I've been working on cars for years and years, just never messed with forced induction of any kind, so the basics are there, just want to understand it more and more.

Also, I have the SAFC, not SAFC II, so how do you narrow down the points to 500rpm incriments? I never got a manual from the person I bought it from, but my friend has an import shop who has installed a few, I just want to figure out what all the settings in the ETC. mode means, and so on. I am getting the car dyno tuned soon, but as for now, I'm at 10psi and rarely get on it ($2.70 for gas???) but hopefully someday a more efficient FMU will be in the mix. I appreciate the description you gave me, I pretty much read about most of what you told me, but every little bit helps. Thanks again.

DragSource

I'm still confused as to why it's being called a hack. . .

Boosted Chemist

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DragSource &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm still confused as to why it's being called a hack. . .</TD></TR></TABLE>

because its a hack

Uberdata even liam the guy who started the hack agrees that you should be useing some other form of fuel control. And if u can't afford the 300 beans you need to go from obd0 to 1 and burn a chip, i find it hard to see how one affords the turbo in the first place

do a search for that vfac hack post by j davis which explains why the hack in the end eats ringlands

Syner-G-Racing LLC

try going to the apexi website and downlaod the manual as a pdf file, I cant remember if the first version allows for the adjustment per 500 rpm.

what type of check valve/missing link are you using?

SOHCex20

I thought you didn't need one with the afc??

DragSource

How is using the SAFC as it was intended to be used a hack?

Air/Fuel Controller

It is more than sufficient BY ITSELF on a mild setup.

It was good enough for me to go 12.8's on and daily drive my car at 7 psi for a year before I had the $$$ to upgrade.

Where is the hack coming into play? If installed properly it's not a hack. . . if you're crossing wires to other things for different results then I see where you could call it a hack.

SOHC_MShue

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=841443 this is why it is a hack

b18ccivics

when did this post trun into a discussion on how much it would cost to do uber data. lol when i usually do the hack i set the high low point at 98/99%. It usually runs pretty good for a hack.

Syner-G-Racing LLC

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DragSource &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How is using the SAFC as it was intended to be used a hack?

Air/Fuel Controller

It is more than sufficient BY ITSELF on a mild setup.

It was good enough for me to go 12.8's on and daily drive my car at 7 psi for a year before I had the $$$ to upgrade.

Where is the hack coming into play? If installed properly it's not a hack. . . if you're crossing wires to other things for different results then I see where you could call it a hack.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

well if it was so freaking great why did you save money for a year to change it?

shadow103rd

Been Running the hack here for close to a year....Never had a problem....

My goals arent 500 whp either......The hack is sufficient...This summer however, I plan to build the block and go to full EMS....

Currently running 10 psi, regualr driving is normal! I have read all the threads about timing issues with the hack and I redearched it before I put it on so I knew what I was getting into...For a mild setup, it works! For a 500 whp car, that would be stupid to try and run the hack on that!

But to answer the guys question about that hack! I think you need to research the hack a little bit more so you can see what your dealing with.....You need to gradually ease that maps into boost...

My settings are
38% 3k
38% 3.5k
37% 4k
37% 4.5k
37% 5k
36% up to redline (7.2k according to the Vafc)

BTW, my car has a rough time idling at -41% My low throttle maps are -37% across the board, and it drives really nice! When I dynoed the car running the hack, my a/f ratio never went above 12.1. However, I dont know anything about my timing maps because I cant monitor it! But I do know that running at least 10 psi is alot safer than running 5 because of the readings your sending the ECU puts you into a really aggrassive timing!

Jon


Modified by shadow103rd at 2:25 AM 4/4/2005

DragSource

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syner-G-Racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well if it was so freaking great why did you save money for a year to change it?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Because 12's aren't fast enough for some people.

SOHCex20

Have you ever ran your car?? I went last night, burned up my clutch on my only run, and ran a 14.9. I had a 2.5 60ft, and a trap speed of 93mph. I want to get that 60ft down to around 2.0, and my trap more around 100 if possible. I'm hoping that clutch will make all the difference because it sucks feeling your car slip at high rpm's like that. Anyways, TurboD16.com had a few post's of top 1/4 mile times and some were quite impressive coming off of stock internals and so on, running anywhere from low 13's to low 14's.

Also, about the hack, I have researched it for a while, trying to understand it all, and I chose to go that route because I didnt feel like going OBD1 and all that, but maybe someday if more mods are in the future then Uberdata will probably be chosen. But in the mean time, I'm striving for high 13's low 14's within the next few weeks.

Syner-G-Racing LLC

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DragSource &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Because 12's aren't fast enough for some people.</TD></TR></TABLE>

at least both agree on something.