raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

I found about 4 versions of "STOCK" type-r maps from xenocron and such

and they all have different ignition maps,. they all say stock type r

how was type-r basemap made anyway if its obd2?

I'm trying to figure out how to tune the ignition maps but so far having no luck

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

The Type R basemap that they distribute is made for the OBD1 Computer. Doesn't matter if its origin was OBD2B or not. There is no "wrong" or "right" one.

You may want to Contact Chris directly and ask your question giving a LOT of background in detail since you have sooo many threads created about this little "experiment" you're going for.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

Well i cant get any help with it...

This one is not related to the turbo type-r thread. This is just bone stock usdm type-r motor with boltons
The tuebo type-r is not even together yet

nobody can answer why i cant use a stock knock sensor with a stock motor to tune the ignition

Everyone keeps saying dont use it yet give no explanation why
Only reference i find is in the crome manual which only says not to use it on built motors it mentions nothing about bone stock motors anywhere

Why do people say its not good enough but its good enough to run a stock honda motor for many years

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

The reason why you're seeing people who have tuned these systems with either an aftermarket knock sensor (J&S) or not one at all is because the stock knock sensor is not very accurate to try and actually tune any ignition timing with. The accuracy of the knock sensor is not very good to base any ignition changes with and therefore, attempting to adjust ignition timing with this sensor is inherently dangerous.

You get a lot of false readings on your management (especially CROME) and the B-series engine (especially on Type R engines) is quite noisy. Those noises are really falsely identified as knock, especially in the Lower RPM band of about 2000-5000. Loose bolts from a test pipe or part of something even in the engine bay falsely give readings of positive knock. You'd be chasing ghosts for days for something that doesn't exist but engine noise.

Even my Apex'i Power FC standalone which uses the stock knock sensor as a monitor just isn't that great to tune with, (and yes, it's OBD2A), so even MY tuner doesn't bother with it, and goes by other parameters.

You have to remember, that the STOCK tune on these B-series engines is rather conservative unlike with the F20C and F22C, so the OEM computer really only senses it when something is REALLY going on, like true detonation.. But by then, it's too late.

Now, if you want actual parameter readings with CROME vs, engine management X or Y, unfortunately, no one here is going to go in depth into that question. After seeing some serious engine damage from depending upon that sensor, many just understood when to give it up, and either went and got a J&S Knock sensor (or equivalent) or bypassed using a knock-sensor altogether. (What my professional tuner did).

So, in essence, it's like the oil "idiot" light; it's really only there because it has to be, but by the time it comes on, whatever is wrong, is already too late.

amadeuscr

Well , In my experience , to be honest , Knock sensor will give false readings most of the time because noise or excessive vibration , when you are tuning at the dyno you can see the difference and the loss of power sometimes because of false readings ... in this case get prof knock sensor for tuning.

my recommendation will be always , take it to the dyno and tune it the right way or leave it completely stock no bolts ons ... , bolt ons will always result in AFR change that will need to be compensated , I don't see too dangerous the knock sensor false readings , cause usually is due to noise and vibration, and that will retard ignition timing , that will result in loss of power but not into too much risk, the dangerous part will be a non working knock sensor that will never read not even false noise , and will leave the engine using the ignition map with no chance of retard or if the the ecu is stock no chipped , I guess vtec will not engage .

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

ok I see. I assumed it was at least accurate enough to be a general reference point
mine consistently shows -4.50degrees through out mid range no matter how many times I reset it
and when I look at the other "stock" type r maps they all have less timing than mine.
I got it from one of the guys here as a starting point
I need to finally learn how to adjust the ignition timing

I'm having trouble with understanding it completely lol( or just scared to blow my **** up)

my fuel map is tuned reasonably well
I drive it every weekend to and from work and adjust is inbetween while I'm at work

I read somewhere that a b16 ignition map is a good place to start for a type-r motor is that true? I cant find that thread anymore I think it was on pgmfi

I'm gonna look into an aftermarket knock sensor

after backing off 2 degrees it still shows -4.50 degrees in midrange lol I'm getting the aftermarket one


theres more and more links that lead nowhere in the FAQ section and older threads that used to contain information now contain only dead links and broken pictures...

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

shodan
out of curiosity which part of the stock knock sensor is crap?
is it bad sensor or bad knock board design or sensor placement or weak programming?

I was looking at the aftermarket systems and was wondering what the difference is since they still are same type of system with a sensor and the knock board except separate from ecu

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

The aftermarket always strays away from the stock configurations.

We never got that deep as to whether or not it was specifically the board or programming. Unlike yourself, most of us OG's do regard Honda as knowing what they are doing and don't scrutinize programming in anyway. Because it's STOCK.

The fact that much of the B-series platform was completely over-engineered in 90% of the aspects that it was originally designed for, and we take that at 1st value. (It's one of the few company platforms most of us trust in that regard, otherwise, we'd be just like yourself and scrutinize everything.) Including most sensors. But we do know when to not regard the OEM sensors, and when to do so, and not really try to split hairs in that regard. That's best for you to call the individual companies and talk with them as to what makes each design different.

So, in answer to your question, we just got rid of the sensor entirely, (board and all) and the Aftermarket one was placed in the same location, as it does give the better readings at that location. To try and mix the aftermarket electronics with the OEM again, is inherently dangerous.

My tuner likes to use knock sensors,but is not a requirement for him to work.. Others feel only comfortable with one in its place.

LightningTeg

Make a cheap set of headphones or start reading plugs. You dont need a knock sensor.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Heh. My tuner doesn't even read plugs. we use EGT gauges.

bluenc-87

I gave you that itr basemap a while back. Got it off my buddy's original 77k miles itr with intake/apexi ws2 catback that was tuned by a reputable shop in nc. Car made 177whp.

Imop i wouldn't run them free maps you find on Xenoncron. I've looked at them before and they are crap. Either get Chris from Xenoncron or Hamotorsports to make you a base map if your going boost.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

Yea thats the one im using
It seems to work best out of all

Just needs some ignition adjustment which im learning how to do now

rhd91integra

I pm'd u both for a copy of the itr map.. please check ur pm's

thank u guys

PyroProblem

There's really no good way to tune ignition without a dyno. MBT is what your after and that can only be measured accurately on a dyno.