forbiddenera

Hi,

scroll down for tl/dr

I may soon switch to ectune to tide me over until I get an s300. Spent a long time comparing neptune and hondata and they're pretty even it seems, I'm leaning towards Hondata as I have a PLX Wideband and will have other plx sensors and it can datalog all the PLX's TTL output directly, digitally which will work nice with TunerView and the like.

I have a 95 CADM EH6 (eg) with a b18b1. Car came running the dizzy (rotated 90 degrees and hanging on by one bolt, soiling oil) and the p06 from the d15b7 still. Already had a chipped p06 and a chipped p28 and Crome (tuner version). Didn't have a chip burner or RTP but found a willem cheap. Works good, RTP would be way better though. Have ftdi cable. Enabled full duplex on ECU. Timing is set to what it should be stock at the dizzy. Ebay shortshift, E.S. shifter bushings. No CAT exhaust but nothing great (was made by crappy tire who likely thought they were doing any other civic with a D, ugh, snapped in half too, had to fix it lol, this was the Previous Owners mechanic/fault, I don't usually let people touch my cars let alone crappy tire ), Running 94 Octane E10, but I may go back to 87 E10 as gas is getting pricier here again. (94 E10 was running $0.89 CAD per L recently or like 0.89 * 3.78 * 0.75 = $2.52 us per gal? Cheap for here, was usually that much for 87)

Compression is (if my memory serves, just did it an hour ago) 1@166psi (172psi wet), 2@178psi, 3@182psi, 4@180psi, max delta between any two dry 12psi (1 vs 2), all 16psi (1 vs 3). Well within specs (nominal 199 psi, min 135psi, max delta (between any two or total?) 28psi) but 1 is definitely low, I was hoping to be within 5 psi all across.. 2, 3, 4 are all within +/- 2psi. I attached pics which are more accurate than the numbers I just pulled out of my *** memory, attached in order I did it which was 1, 2, 3, 4, 1 (wet).

Once I could burn, first thing I did was find a b18b1 basemap and burn it. This worked OK (well, better than the D map which surprisingly ran it well even though there was like upto 19 degrees difference in timing in some places, plugs were cooked when I removed em), for a bit but not great, crossing the threshold to open loop caused the engine to lean (could tell this from the narrowband gauge even) and loose power, enough you could feel it.

PLX Wideband, gen4 with lsu 4.9 and touch screen gauge, came in, got installed. Closed loop disabled on chip for tuning, wideband output to stock o2 pin, reads 10 to 17.4 or so, don't really need accuracy past 17 to 1 in the datalogging for now so not going to bother modding the ecu yet. With other EMS, I could put the wideband output to a different pin (eg, ELD as Canadian cars not has) and the simulated narrowband on the stock o2 pin. For now, my narrowband monitors the simulated output (which isn't hooked to the ecu while tuning) which gives me an idea of what it's going to output (especially in relation to how the stock o2 sensor modulated the mostly useless blinky lights)

Do some logging, seems a touch lean. I select the entire table, hit page up once, burn chip. Night and day difference. Lots more power. Did some more tweaking on the map aiming for 14.7 around idle and upto 12.5 to 13 in higher loads/rpms. I also read about leaning in the cruise area to save fuel and tried that, am able to cruise smoothly with no knock I can hear upto 16 to 17.

I had a bit of a time finding a laptop with a parallel port for the burner. Got the laptop I sold my friend 10 years ago back out of random coincidence, so that problem is solved though my inverter won't run its power supply well (of course my mbp runs fine! Both 90w psu's afaik) and the battery doesn't last long (never did new, it's a Pentium 4 "desktop replacement" laptop) glad I replaced it when I sold it at least or it'd be totally toast, surprised it isn't still 10 years later. Get almost an hour.

Now that I am set up, I'm going to find somewhere safe and legal to do some test runs with the accelerometer and datalog and make some scientifically proven progress, I hope. Going to get a knocksense unit I think. For those who aren't familiar, it's a knock box with 5v output for EMS as well as headphone jack for listening. Once I have that I'll feel a little more comfortable screwing with my ignition timing.

When timing my car, my buddy (d series maniac and super smart honda mechanics dude) thought it might be possible that my exhaust cam was a tooth off. Well, tonight I had a chance to look and check my belt. Belt isn't too bad, will still replace it soon with the water pump. Exhaust DEFINITELY looks retarded a tooth which is what, about 10 cam degrees so 5 crank degrees? Attached pic of cams timing.

Didn't want to tear into it (was way too tired and it was way too late to start ******* with the timing belt) tonight but I think I'm going to do it before I replace the belt even, though I'm surprised how well it runs, but it's definitely raising temperatures, the new plugs show signs of hot combustion (though I did first put them in when I got the car and was still using the wrong ecu)

For those TL/DR

1. Anyway, one of my actual problems that's bugging the crap out of me: I cannot get launch control to work with the gold Rom. It works fine with the p30 and p72 base. I don't have a clutch switch yet but it's not enabled and I'm not using 3 stage as obviously I can't. A standstill Rev limit should still work sans clutch switch on gold lIke it does on standard. I am 90% sure I did have it working once with the rising rate enabled but I haven't been able to reproduce. Any ideas? I'm using the latest version of crome and gold rom.

2. Another issue is the ecu is showing an atmospheric pressure of 873-880mbar and I can't really get engine load to peak above that, lpoking at my last log peak was 872mbar. At KOEO, I measured the (stock) MAP sensor to ground and it read 2.53v, in the calibration in crome it says stock honda map is 2.93v at 1atm which is 1013mbar or so isn't it? I tried changing the calibration but the 1atm voltage is the middle of the 'range' which seems to require me to change the range of the map sensor if I wanted 1atm to equal what the multimeter says. Am I way off in my reasoning here? I left the setting stock for now.

3. Cyl 1 crappy compression (if you were tl/Dr scroll up for compression test results) rings maybe? My honda friend says yes.

C. If anyone here's willing to look at my logs / maps and give feedback, I'd appreciate it. I'm pretty sure I'm going in the right direction but I'm always looking to learn more and unfortunately while my super smart Honda friend can pull a d in like under 90 mins, he has no idea what crome is nor ever saw a laptop datalogging a honda ecu til I showed him.

X. No, you're a towel.

motoxxxman

what elevation are you at?

I can't see the cam timing very well in that pic. can you make sure the crank is at tdc and post another picture with the angle more straight on, preferably level with the surface of the head? 1 cam degree = 2 crank degrees. so if the cam is off 1 tooth, its actually off by about 23 crank degrees.

when is the last time you adjusted the valve lash?

forbiddenera

I'm located in Calgary, AB, Canada, Google says 1045m above sea level, 3500 feet.

I'm surprised you can't tell from the pic, looked pretty obvious to me but I guess I also saw it IRL. I tried to line it up best I could for pic, but I was just rotating with the starter as it was late and I was tired and not planning on bending down to rotate the crank by hand.

I haven't adjusted the valve lash yet, I have only had the car since Christmas and it's also currently my DD. I plan on doing this soon.

You're right about the degrees, I had it backwards. The exhaust being retarded so much creates more overlap correct, or would it be less? I'm trying to visualize it.. actually, it would be less overlap, thus increase DCR? This would affect my DCR test results right? I'm surprised my idle is so smooth, considering.

motoxxxman

retarded exhaust closes later; more overlap.
valve lash out of spec can have quite a significant impact on compression ratio. specifically on the intake cam. too tight decreases comp test, too loose increases comp test.

you do not want to try reprogramming a map sensor to read 1000mBar at ambient pressure. it needs to read actual pressure to be accurate in order to properly compensate for changes. ambient pressure will almost never be 1000mBar at 3500 feet, it will always be a bit lower, but not so low that its reaching 800's I wouldnt think. you might have a bad connection somewhere, or a bad ground, losing a bit of voltage from the map sensor to the ecu.

forbiddenera

Thanks, that helps. I'll be doing the valve lash soon, we'll see how it looks after.

If I have more overlap, it's overlap of them being open, thus decreasing DCR, correct?

So my overlap is increased by quite a bit and probably has increased top-end (I seem to have a fair bit of power up top but not much torque down low) but my idle is surprisingly smooth seeming, though, not smooth enough my buddy didn't pretty much guess it was off a tooth, but, hardly stutters, idles where it should, etc..

I just did a quick google which said 1000m is about 90kpa which is about 888atm so that actually makes sense, so I'm not too far off. Does this mean I'll never get into column 10 of my map at my altitude? Without FI of course, lol.

The car does suck (burn) a bit of oil, maybe a liter or two a month and I do maybe 2000-3000km a month probably. I'm hoping that improves after doing the valve seals.

I'd like to throw a crap ebay turbo on it and have some cheap quick fun while I get another b18b1 from the junkyard to rebuild but if the rings are already super worn, might not be worth it. If something nicer comes along at a good price, I'll grab, but I can get block/head/accessories for 200 cad from picknpull or if they have another sale, less.. I should've pulled it last month when everything was half off lol, I doubt I'll find much better than a b18b1 in there that I can swap in super easy.

No ideas as to why crome gold launch control won't work? But non-gold works fine? Tried searching this one with no luck. Only thing anyone has said is "I need a clutch switch" but I don't see why when the option is there without it (obviously without FTS, activated by VSS) and works w/out it on non gold.

raverx3m

iTrader: (1)

as far as trying to get pressure at WOT to read same as atmospheric pressure it wont most of the time

if at WOT the intake pressure evens out with atmospheric pressure too early that means you have a restriction in the exhaust

if your motor never reaches full atmospheric pressure in the intake that means the intake is restrictive and always has vacuum

ideally you stay right arount atmospheric pressure and maybe in some cases see positive pressure in certain spot from properly designed intake system.
I forgot who managed to do that. rocket or endyn? one of the old race cars

motoxxxman

I actually just checked myself out of curiosity before coming back to this thread and found your readings to be correct; average atomospheric pressure at 3500' is about 880-890mbar from what I saw.

overlap is when both valves are open, at/around TDC, on the stroke opposite the compression/combustion stroke. so it has no effect on compression ratio, whether it be static or dynamic. it simply allows more exhaust to exit and more fresh mixture to enter when they both have high enough momentum from velocity, which occurs at higher rpm, as per your quote from DA Interweb

forbiddenera

Tha ks for clearing that all up, should be all obvious to me but sometimes a shove in the right direction helps.

I guess I'll have to see the results of correcting it, again I'm surprised it's not running worse, my idle is almost perfectly smooth and the car has a lot more torque than my d15b7 sedan of the same year but I feel like it should have more. Power is decent high up though and I'm hoping I don't loose too much correcting this 'off' situation. Now, if I actually had adjustable cam gears...

motoxxxman

my guess is top end will stay the same, or gain a little, but low end and midrange will gain a considerable amount

forbiddenera

Okay, so I thought about what you said and it makes sense that it wouldn't affect the DCR because it's not even open the compression cycle Right? I only thought that because I've read this kinda thing:

Also, I got my crome gold standstill Rev limiter working, the throttle threshold was too high (which explains why I thought it kicked in the other day randomly, it did, I must've floored it off the line, which I never do but.. lol)

Now I'm probably going to get adjustable gears soon and throw them on when I do the belt/pump/pully/cam seals/etc. In the meantime I may leave it, or I may decide to actually line it up, triple check and fix it. Haven't decided, though my valve cover gasket now leaks after opening it, I'm not surprised, I had a new one handy but wanted to save it for when I do the belt, pump tensioner, etc..

Loving being able to modify stuff. Car cruises fine at like 17.5 afr, gonna keep my cruise lean to save fuel. Jumped down to 87 E10 because gas shot up again and haven't heard any audible knock, though my timing is only 0.25 to 0.5 degrees advanced and my map is richer than stock.

I'm wondering if my injectors need a cleaning or if I need a new fuel pump or something, the stock map shouldn't have been quite that lean in some areas. Think it's worth running some Lucas upper cyl lube/inK cleaner or something?

When I looked down at my pistons they were pretty black with carbon too and I seafoamed it shortly after I got it. This motor only needs to last maybe a year, but I would like to boost it and blow it up, as I said I'll probably pick another b18b1 from pnp for 200, clean and build that with probably a vtec head. I was gonna grab a 125 usd eBay turbo, if it gives me 6 months to a year I'm happy but I'm worried about boosting it at all with the lower comp on #1. If I do, 7psi would be my high-max goal, whIle I expect it to blow I don't want it to happen first run, haha.

I prob won't cheap out on manifold or exhaust or waste gate, just turbo at first, then when second motor is done and built I'll buy a half decent turbo and everything else will be ready.

Any suggestions on good b series adjustable cam gears? I was reading about a few and I've read the aem ones aren't actually that great, only 3 bolt points and heard about them wearing out? Or am I mistaken?

I was also reading about the possibility of using a b17 crank with custom pistons to destroke and have a better r/s but apparently getting the crank alone is a grand and a challenge? Making it work would be too, but a 1.6l ls vtec with 1,75 r/s or so would probably rev good enough to make the ls vtec REALLY worth while especially with cams. Plus, .2 liters less helps with my power calculations for the racing im going to be doing (rally!)

Now to go adjust my launch control, wee.

forbiddenera

Honestly, that's kind of what I was guessing as well and hoping for. Having your exhaust cam one tooth off isn't the proper way of going about adjusting cam timing to shift powerbands, lol.

I seem to have most power (butt dyno guess) between 4400 and 6400 or so. Sometimes feels like ages to get to 4.5k sometimes but once there I'm hitting shift light (set at 6500, cut at 7000) pretty quick

motoxxxman

correct, it does not affect compression ratio or compression tests because the exhaust valves are not open at all during the compression stroke. the intake valves are though. the quote you posted was more referring to static vs dynamic compression with higher and lower duration cams, referring mainly to the effect due to the different closing points of the intake valves. the overlap bits were confusingly added as extra info because higher duration cams typically have higher overlap.

get that tbelt on correctly asap, whether you think it runs fine or not, it isn't.

check the calibration of your wideband, it shouldnt even be possible to run smooth at 17.5, it should be breaking up like crazy. thats waaaaaay too lean even for light throttle anyway. it may not knock, but combustion temps are through the roof.
never trust a "stock map", especially if you don't run an active o2 sensor.

87 E10 is the same thing is regular 87 pump fuel; 87 octane gas with 10% ethanol. in case you didn't know.

older aem gears are 3 bolt and often slip, strip, or break. they upgraded though and are now available in 5-bolt if I remember correctly.
I usually recommend skunk2 gears. but get them from a trusted retailer, or the marketplace here. a lot of online places (mainly ebay) are selling knockoffs listed as genuine, but they are terrible, made wrong and super low quality

forbiddenera

It's been running with the tbelt like that for years before I got it, car also came with the wrong ecu (p06) and dizzy (from d15b7) which was only held on w one bolt and 90 degress sideways and spewing oil everywhere.. ran like that over 10 years, ugh. Compared the two maps in crome, p06 map can be upto 19 degrees different in some areas in timing.

The belt was never put on properly the last time it was done, which the PO said was a few years ago, after his went and luckily didn't take the engine with it. Couldn't find any evidence of skipping and the timing belt was in great shape. Engine is lined up CORRECTLY and now sounds a lot different.

And it was actually the intake cam that was advanced a tooth, not the exhaust retarded, once I had it lined up proper it was obvious.

Also, we did the valve lash as the car was able to sit overnight, some of the valves had ZERO clearance, others too much and all the adjuster nuts were tightened to like 80 foot pounds.

The valve train is much noiser now which I'm not sure I like but considering I had zero clearance I could see that being quieter though not better? I'm pretty sure we did it right, slight drag on the feelers between the cam lobe and valve, held the adjuster in place while tightening, adjusted all to 20ftlb on the torque wrench after.

Intake is now set to 0.08mm across the board, exhaust set to 0.16, ranges for b18b1 are 0.08-0.12mm in and 0.16-0.20mm ex.

I'll check out the skunk2s and maybe look at the new AEMS, thought I had read what you just confirmed before.

motoxxxman

yeah I double checked a few days ago and all aem gears are now 5 bolt.

I'm glad you corrected the timing belt.

zero clearance for valve lash will cause major running problems lol, so I'm also very happy you did the valve lash adjustment. though I'm thinking maybe you did it wrong?
1) are you sure you used the correct feeler guages? lately I've been hearing a lot of people using metric measurements with SAE (american) feeler guages; IE: spec of 0.08mm and using a 0.008" feeler guage, or spec of 0.16mm and using a 0.016" guage.
2) you're supposed to check the clearance AFTER the locknut is tightened. if you checked/adjusted clearance when the locknut was loose, then tightened the nut, the clearances will loosen up a good amount, and often unevenly. did you check all clearances after tightening the locknut?
3) slight drag on the guage does not mean its actually set to that spec, because the surfaces are wide and curved. when doing valve lash checks, you can get "slight drag" on a range of over 0.10mm. the best way to check clearances is the go/no-go method. IE: if spec is 0.08mm, then the 0.08mm guage should slide in with some drag, but the 0.09mm (or 0.10mm) guage should not go in at all. if the guage fits, it means the gap is at least that size, not definitely that exact size

forbiddenera

1. yes, we did. Snap On gauges with both metric and SAE listed, went by metric.0.08 and 0.16mm
2. the adjuster was carefully held in place while the nut was tighted and checked again after tightening I believe.
3. my friend is a journeyman HD diesel mechanic and it's not his first valve adjustment, even brought me over and showed me what the drag should feel like. He also has go/nogo gauges and was going to use them first but opted to use the others because they were shaped better (the go/nogo were just flat, while the other ones have a bend after the gauge)



Snap On feelers used.


The one thing my other friend suggested was rocking the cam a bit and double checking. He couldn't get some of his smaller feelers in on some of the valves at all as I said and the lock nuts were ridiculously over tightened, so I could understand maybe a bit more noise but.. I'm going to have my other friend have a listen because he knows Honda's, especially D's pretty well (even though this is a b).. I may open it up again and double check the tolerances, regretting using sealant on both sides of the gasket now, I should have at least waited 'til I knew for sure, but I had trusted we did it right, we followed the FSM.

I'll do some datalogs soon and compare them and the virtual dyno/accelerometer readings and we'll see how it affected things. My butt dyno is saying sometimes it feels slower but others its faster. I do love the way it sounds now though, way nicer grunt note under load, other than the loud valves, lol.

motoxxxman

there's no such thing as go/no-go guages. there are only straight guages and angled guages. go/no-go is a method of doing it, not a tool.
I still think it needs to be re-done, or at least re-checked using the go/no-go method.

deisel mechanics use looser tolerances. I'm sure he knows what the drag should feel like, in a deisel, with looser tolerances. hondas are different though, you can't go by feel, you have to go by actual measurement. if it calls for 0.08mm, make sure the 0.08mm fits and the 0.10mm does not fit. its the only way to actually make sure.

you could set the lash to 0.18mm, and I'd bet you'll feel "slight drag" on all guages all the way down to 0.08mm.

just saying.

forbiddenera

Not sure where you get the idea that go/no-go gauges don't exist or that there's no such thing...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go/no_go_gauge

In this specific situation, I'm referring to feeler gauges that are stepped. Go/no-go or stepped feeler gauges have a tip that is say, 0.08mm and then about half inch up the gauge, steps to 0.10mm.

You insert the 0.08mm go/no go and slide until the step, the step should not fit and the feeler should stop there.

I will still recheck, but the manual itself states the exact same thing, and I do believe that once torqued, he went through all of them with the 0.08mm and the 0.10mm and the 0.10mm wouldn't fit ala go/nogo.

I could see less clearance (as it was, way too tight) being quieter anyway, and had a D-series Civic parked by me yesterday whose valves weren't too much quieter than mine, maybe I'm being paranoid but I'll still double check, again.

motoxxxman

I stand corrected, I guess you taught me something then lol, because I never knew those actually existed. now I want some, and will be looking for where to buy them, as I've always just used regular straight or angled feelers the way i described.

it is possible you're just being paranoid, but never hurts to check even if its just for peace of mind.
aftermarket springs usually do make the valvetrain a little louder than stock though in case you didnt know