Thought I would try and get this topic going. I found someone talking about using ceramic ball bearings and ceramic engine bearings, for high hp, super moto, rally, and f1, so why not drag racing?

Has anyone used or know anything about using ceramic bearings? The weight, friction reduction, and durability seems really great compared to the tradtional stuff used now, also saying that even in extreme conditions can be run dry and still survive unlike our normal bi-metal bearings... Is there some insight out there?


Modified by pumafeet10 at 9:58 PM 9/9/2008

 

I guess this is an unknown resource

 

lets see your resource

 

Cost? You have to admit that F1 teams have alot more money backing them then most drag teams. This could be a major reason we don't see them in use in drag cars.

 

I think he is refering to the rod and main bearings in the motor. He did state "engine bearings". Plus I believe there are several turbo manufactures that use ceramic bearings in the center sections. But I could be wrong.

 

a little tidbit i came across when getting certified.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2008 NHRA rulebook GENERAL REGULATIONS section 4 1:2 ENGINE last sentence &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ceramic bearings probibited in all NHRA categories.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i had never heard of them till that point and didnt even ask why that was.
-Roger

 

sorry wasn't saying there was some secret resource, i wish. someone made a post on ecomodder about using ceramic bearings instead of ss ones in their wheels and then i did some searching but there is no definite answer to who uses them now or if anyone does, but there were a bunch of websites selling them to order for pretty much any app you could think of.

They do seem to be more expensive but i found maybe one site giving a price and that was about it.

The idea was that anywhere there are bearings in the car such as wheel bearing, turbo, trans, and engine bearings them selves could be made of ceramic to make things lighter and more durable, from what ive seen..

I swear thats all i know...

 

I just put a pair of ceramic hybrid ball bearings in a machine tool spindle. They had about a 35% higher speed rating than the conventional bearings that failed in service. Ceramics are great for speed, precision, and low friction because of less thermal problems. I believe they are not very forgiving of shock loads... compared to conventional. They are another "tool" and when you need them use them. If conventional will work fine, you are just throwing money away on ceramics...

 

Supposedly ceramic bearings and exotic material crankshafts are the reason Anderson was kicking *** in Pro Stock a couple of years ago and that rule was put in because of it.

 

In the reading i did , said that they will last longer in comperable situations, so i know what you mean about throwing money away for most things but what about using them is transmissions or wheel bearings, but are they not allowed in any way shape or form in nhra sanctioned racing?

 

Here are some texts on Ceramic bearings that might help your understanding and decision:

A basic primer:

Ceramic bearings are typically constructed with a ferrous inner and outer ring or race
with ceramic ***** in the place of steel. Ceramic bearings offer many advantages over all
steel bearings, such as higher speed and acceleration capability, increased stiffness, lower
friction and more. Ceramic ***** are also nonconductive. Ceramic bearings are available
in all standard industry configurations such as, angular bearings, thrust bearing, pillow
block bearing, needle bearings, and roller bearings.
Ceramic bearings ***** are typically made from (Si3N4) ceramic silicon nitride and have
greater hardness than steel ***** resulting in longer ball life. Ceramic bearing ***** have
smoother surface finishes than most steel bearing *****. Thermal properties are also better
steel ***** which result in less heat generation due to friction at high speeds. To
manufacture a extra fine surface finish on ceraimc *****, the ***** are elevated with a
magnetic field and then polished with plasma stream. Ceramic bearings ***** are rated at
higher spin rates than steel bearing *****.
Cceramic bearing ***** require less lubricant and exhibt less lubrication degradation,
which results in increased bearing life. Ceramic bearings manufactured from Si3N4 can
operate at temperatures up to 1600F. Ceramics also are resistant to oxidation.
Typical applications for ceramic bearings:
High temperature applications, friction, high speed, aircraft accessory, semiconductor and
food processing, dental handpiece turbines. Many high speed electric motors requiring
voltage isolation use cermic material bearings.

Really good NASA Stuff

http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/repo...2.pdf

NASA/TM-June 2004

Current Status of Hybrid Bearing Damage Detection

Although limited data is available from full scale engine tests with

hybrid

bearings, wear mechanisms of silicon nitride have been studied in a lab
environment. Silicon nitride wear mechanisms in sliding and rolling

contact,

studied by Chao et al. [5], identified three basic wear mechanisms. The

first,

oxidation tribochemical wear, is due to a tribochemical reaction with H2O
in a humid environment. The coefficient of friction and wear rate was

reduced

by moisture. Additives in the lubrication may also have different

reactions

and result in different antiwear functions. The second, plastic

deformation,

is the wear mechanism due to a change in morphology of the surface due
to a change volume. The third, microfracture is due to localized fracture
due to fracture of one or more grains.

The literature also identifies common failure modes of the silicon nitride
rolling elements. Chao [5] identified spalling, similar to bearing steels,

as

the most common mode of failure. Galbato [6] observed silicon nitride
ball failure due to spalling. Ebert [7] observed similar failure phenomena
with steel and ceramic materials. Burrier [8] observed degradation of the
bearing in the form of micro-spalling of the steel race surfaces. Yoshida
et al. [9] also investigated rolling contact fatigue characteristics of

ceramic

rollers and observed spalling failures.

Duffy [10] performed nine tests using conventional ball bearing endurance
rigs. Bearing failures were detected by accelerometers on the load arm and
housing. Of the nine tests performed, 4 failed due to inner race spalls,
3 failed due to outer race spalls, 1 had both inner and outer races

spalls,

and 1 ball failure. Hybrid bearing spalls occurred on edges of the ball

tracks,

as compared to steel bearings that occur in the center of the running

track.


O'Brien et al. [11] investigated rolling element fatigue life of hybrid

bearings

consisting of Si3N4 *****, REX20 steel inner races and CRU20 outer races.
Bearing dimensions were 72 mm outer diameter, 35 mm inner bore diameter,
with a ball width of 11.906 mm. The bearings were thrust loaded at 5400

rpm,

and lubricated with MIL-L-7808 oil, 1.88 GPA Hertzian stress. Six groups
were tested with 4 bearings in each group. All of the 6 groups of 4 hybrid
bearings exceeded 2600 hr of testing. Four groups of hybrid bearings were
then tested at 2.29 GPa. Of the 4 test groups, 3 bearings failed at 1548,
3408, and 3441 hr due to ball failures, the fourth bearing failed at 2550

hr

due to inner race failure. Ball failures were identified as spalls (5 mm)

observed

on the *****.

Rhoads and Bashyam [12] compared hybrid bearings to all steel bearings
operating under severe shock loading conditions for turbine engine

applications.

They found failure mode and time to failure similar for both hybrid and
AISI M50 steel *****. During one of the induced defect tests, metallic and
nonmetallic debris were collected from both the M50Nil steel rings and the
silicon nitride *****. Several of the silicon nitride chips were large

enough to

be caught in a 400 micron screen: 80 by 160 and 150 by 400 microns. They
also found a large amount of metallic debris was generated, indicating oil
debris analysis based on detection of the metallic properties of the

debris

generated by the failing component may still be used to detect some

failures.


After reviewing several papers on hybrid bearing failure characteristics,

it

can be concluded that debris produced by fatigue failures of hybrid

bearings

are similar to conventional bearings. Additional data is required to

identify

other failure mechanisms. The next step is to determine if diagnostic

tools

used for conventional bearings can detect damage to hybrid bearings.

Ohtu and Satake [13] compared vibration characteristics of all ceramic

with

hybrid and conventional steel ball bearings. They tested 3 samples of each

type

of bearing and used kerosene as the lubricant. Looking at the overall

vibration

velocity in decibels, they measured the lowest vibration signal on the all

ceramic

bearing, and the highest on the hybrid bearing. They also found vibration

levels

increased with speed, but did not change significantly with axial loads

for all

3 types of bearings.

Takebayashi [14] compared the rolling fatigue life of steel, hybrid, and

all

ceramic bearings. Vibration was used as the diagnostic tool to indicate

bearing

fatigue damage. Similar to other cited references, he found damage to all
ceramic and hybrid ceramic bearings due to contact fatigue was identical

to

that of the rolling contact fatigue. This damage was flaking observed in

the

bearing steel, and was picked up by vibration. When vibration reached 2X
starting level, test equipment was automatically shutdown.

Rhoads and Bashyam [12] reviewed sensor technologies that could detect
both magnetic and nonmagnetic debris. They evaluated different measurement
technologies for ceramic chip detection using the following criteria:

cost;

reliability, full-flow and on-line operation; real time data detection;

detect

debris larger than 200 microns; detect a minimum of 10 chips; commercially
available; and ability to detect metallic and nonmetallic debris. Using

the

results of this analysis, they combined an ultrasonic pulse echo sensor

with a

full-flow debris retention screen and an infrared photoelectric sensor

with a

fullflow debris retention screen. They found both sensors can detect

magnetic

and non magnetic debris, but a similar response of the sensor due to

entrained

air limits both techniques. They also found a commercially available

vibration

sensing system can detect outer ring, cage, and rolling element defects on

the

hybrid bearings.

Another sensor that has recently been developed detects and monitors

increased

levels of electrostatic charge produced as a result of machinery component
deterioration. This oil line sensor is capable of detecting non-metallic

particulate

and wear debris [15]. However, this sensor is expensive since it is

currently in

the R&D phase. This analysis is limited to commercially available sensors

that

are relatively inexpensive (&lt;$1000).


My experience is that with std ***** usually the races go to hell anyways.

--

. Bottom line: Ceramics can't stand debris in the oil!, they can't stand a shock that will crack, spall, or fracture the *****.

BTW ordered my ceramics thru Boca Bearing, shipped same day, and they were of very high quality.


Modified by BigMoose at 11:50 PM 9/9/2008

 

good lord didn't see that post coming! thank you for the research

 

After hearing about greg anderson using it i wonder how hard would it be to re tool machines to make things out of ceramic materials? It seems like any easy way to drop weight and increase effciency with all systems in our cars.

 

If I remember correctly it was said he was paying about $10,000 for a set of bearings. It might be a while before the price is anywhere near a Honda owners budget.

 

Check out http://www.worldwidebearings.com/

We've been using them in motorcycles since 1999. The bearings were a important
part of our set up as far as going fast. I've even run ceramic wheel bearings
bone dry with no problems. You can use them anywhere you have roller ball
bearings like wheels and transmissions. I have a set of ***** for our CV's for
the All Motor car but haven't tried them yet.

In a turbo application they improve spool up and durability.

 

it seems like ceramic bearings would be a great idea, like most guys you have to pay for quality parts to stay ahead of the game

 

The ceramic bearings in my T3/T4 Turbonetics turbo only lasted 8k miles; new turbo with new rebuilt H22. I had no lubrication or drainage issues.

 

theyre pretty hyped in speed skating. i used to skate inline and quad speed/jamming. i bought a set that was about $180 for my quad skates and busted the **** out of them. side loading and impact definitely arent their high points. id say the $ is better spent elsewhere, legal or not legal for whatever sanction you run in

 

Your letting stuff out of the bag that I'm sure guys out there would love to swift kick ya for! Rule #1 if you have a secret on horsepower keep it to yourself. Sharing is not caring when it comes to having an edge in power. We all know H-T is the land for copy-cats syndrome.

 

I know some guys that drag race bikes. One of them races NHRA Pro Stock........Anyways, they use ceramic bearings in the wheels of the bike and I think the transmission. I was going to post up some questions about that stuff on here and see if anyone got any significant gains or help from these bearings.

I think the guys use Worldwide Bearings or something like that in the bikes? I think that is the manufacturers name.

 

this was also brought up on supraforums and there was a new gtr that made more power , but the price for the wheel bearings they were using were i think 500 or so. They are pricey but the benefits seem to out weigh the cost.

 

ceramic Bearings are used alot in all types of racing the pro stock guys love them. they are 60% stronger than SS

 

If im not mistaking, I remember talking with innovative turbo a while back. They run ceramic dual bb in their new line of turbos.

 

I have a ceramic bearing source I'll be using, but WOW $$$$$$$ lol

 

The 1987 Buick GNX was one of the first cars if not the first to use Ceramic Ball Bearings in its Turbocharger, it made a noticeable difference over the standard GN, I drove both and could tell the difference.