what size capacitor would I need for each of these amps?
http://www.hookedontronics.com...-F345

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-V...P3001

hopefully its an easy answer, im just paranoid about my own judgement lol


-Z

edit: oh, and it would be separate cap for each amp.

 

Im not gonna start the arguement
Just read this:
http://www.caraudio.com/forum/...t=Cap

and:
http://www.caraudio.com/forum/...t=Cap

But do this and you should be fine:
http://www.caraudio.com/forum/...52355

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Skip01 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
But do this and you should be fine:
http://www.caraudio.com/forum/...52355</TD></TR></TABLE>
yup theres your easy answer, caps suck.

 

i am going to have to say, thank you, i thought about doing that, and now i think i will.

caps = mmmm nah.

 

?? caps are worthless? are these people crazy? do they know ANYTHING about electricity?????? good god . . . where do they come up with this crap??? these people are just strait up dumb. caps do exactly what they're supposed to do, provide short bursts of power when needed, they act like a second battery by storing power. it'll provide the needed power to your system so that your lights won't dim etc. caps are good, and anyone that thinks otherwize needs to do some research. . .

 

Yeah I think Im gonna have to agree...Caps do what they are intended to do. Obviously a second battery or an upgraded alternator would be better, but for an install with a few amps, a cap is more than good enough to do the job. And I'm not tryin to start a huge arguement cause this topic has been pushed a hundred times!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Znypar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what size capacitor would I need for each of these amps?
http://www.hookedontronics.com...-F345

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-V...P3001

hopefully its an easy answer, im just paranoid about my own judgement lol


-Z

edit: oh, and it would be separate cap for each amp.</TD></TR></TABLE> As you can see the cap debate rages on, and I guess it will forever.

First a couple of things, your running 300W RMS into 4 ohms for the high-pass and only 150W RMS into 4 ohms for low-pass, where you should have about 2-3 times the power for the low-pass over the high-pass, thats not saying the system will not work.

Back to the cap, you have less then 500W RMS total, I don't see you needing anything as long as the alt. and batt. are good, whether you add a cap or bigger or a second batt. to the system, all will put an additional load on the alt, just like the 2 amps.

I have heard all the arguments for not using caps and why they do not work, but as far as I am concerned the naysayers and the cap haters don't know what they are talking about, I have been installing caps on car audio systems for over 25 years, long before you could get one off the shelf at a car audio shop, [no one made a "car audio cap" of coarse no one really made car amps back then either, [we had to make our own or modify 110V amps] we stripped caps out of "old school" computers, [you know the ones the size of a drink vending machine] 15V 50,000 mF ones, and used 5 or 6 of them at once.

 

I love my cap

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fcm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I have heard all the arguments for not using caps and why they do not work, but as far as I am concerned the naysayers and the cap haters don't know what they are talking about.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

We agree on something.

For those that don't believe Open an amplifier an count the number of caps used. Most will be on the 12v input to the switching power supply. The "better" amplifiers will have a large capacitor bank. Capacitors do what they were designed to do or they would not exsist. Like anything some work better then others.


Modified by nsxxtreme at 7:38 PM 6/8/2006

 

FCM, if you've been installing capacitors as storage devices on 12V lines for 25 years, you'd be doing this longer then Richard Clark and would hvae come up with this first....interesting.

Are capacitors worthess - no, they are in many devices today, and are a key part of circuit design.

Now, a capacitors ability to help make your music sound better when installed on the 12V line to a car audio amplifier in a car with an adequate charging system - thats stretching it...imho of course.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bjmsdrum00 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">?? caps are worthless? are these people crazy? do they know ANYTHING about electricity?????? good god . . . where do they come up with this crap??? these people are just strait up dumb. caps do exactly what they're supposed to do, provide short bursts of power when needed, they act like a second battery by storing power. it'll provide the needed power to your system so that your lights won't dim etc. caps are good, and anyone that thinks otherwize needs to do some research. . . </TD></TR></TABLE>

the question is not how they operate - it's easy to quatify how they operate, the question is - does that make an audible impact on your system.......?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rcurley55 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

the question is not how they operate - it's easy to quatify how they operate, the question is - does that make an audible impact on your system.......?</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you can hear it.......Since humans require a lot of distortion in order to distiguish a difference I would doubt very many people would be able to "hear" a difference. But it will improve the transient response of your music. Your electrical system will also thank you.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you can hear it.......Since humans require a lot of distortion in order to distiguish a difference I would doubt very many people would be able to "hear" a difference. But it will improve the transient response of your music. Your electrical system will also thank you.</TD></TR></TABLE>

if it would improve the transient response, then surely you could hear it - right?

/devil'sadvocate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rcurley55 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

if it would improve the transient response, then surely you could hear it - right?

/devil'sadvocate </TD></TR></TABLE>

While it will improve transient response humans require a lot of distortion in order to distiguish a difference.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">While it will improve transient response humans require a lot of distortion in order to distiguish a difference.</TD></TR></TABLE>

so then would you say that installing a capacitor makes no audible difference to a car audio system?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rcurley55 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">FCM, if you've been installing capacitors as storage devices on 12V lines for 25 years, you'd be doing this longer then Richard Clark and would hvae come up with this first....interesting.

Are capacitors worthess - no, they are in many devices today, and are a key part of circuit design.

Now, a capacitors ability to help make your music sound better when installed on the 12V line to a car audio amplifier in a car with an adequate charging system - thats stretching it...imho of course.</TD></TR></TABLE> Going on 35 years now as an installer, as for coming up with it, I don't see how, as I said we stripped them out of old school computers where they were used to stiffen/stabilize the voltage/current in the computers, and as has been mentioned they are found in any amps power supply.

And yes you are probably right, if I had though about it at the time, I could have sourced some caps got a label made up, FCM CAP, or Hammer CAP, as Hammer was my nickname at the time, would I be rich now?
Keeping in mind at the time no one was even making car audio amps yet, we are talking about 4 and 8 track tape and the first car audio cass. here.

I also agree with you about how effective/useful a cap would be when you have an "adequate charging system", but then if you have read my posts I always recommend improving the charging system over a cap. 94

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rcurley55 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
so then would you say that installing a capacitor makes no audible difference to a car audio system?</TD></TR></TABLE>
It is not as simple as that. It really would depend on the amplifier design, system design, blah,blah, blah. It will make an audible difference. Wether or not your ear could tell is another story.

I would recommend a cap to stiffen the electrical system in a car. Even in a car that has a large alternator and good battery it will be slow to respond to transients. Which is why you see your lights flicker. That high current alternator or battery will not respond as fast as a capacitor.

Spending a $100-$200 on a cap IMO is a good investment. It will reduce the noise on the 12V line. Noise is defined by anything that makes the signal deviate from its intended value. An amplifier yanking current and pulling the voltage down causes a very noisy line. A capacitor will smooth this out and you will end up with less ripple voltage.

The progression I would buy things is, upgrade wires, a better battery with low esr, then an appropriate cap with low esr, then an alternator. No single solution is best for all setups it all depends on the complete system design. But if you had to generalize these are the choices I would make.


Modified by nsxxtreme at 11:06 AM 6/9/2006

 

Another way to visualize what a cap is doing.

We all know an alternator does not produce DC correct?
It produces AC which is a sinusoid at some frequency.
Now if you invert the lower half of a sinusoid you get nnnnnnnnnnn Draw it out on paper if it helps. Now notice this is not DC. DC would be --------------------.

A bridge rectifier does the inversion.

So your output out of your alternator is nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. You have gaps where the alternator is not supplying anything they are short amounts of time (time is relative). Guess when the largest current draws are? When the voltage drops your amplifier will pull more current to maintane its voltage. So now what device can fill in these gaps for short amounts of time? A capacitor does exactly this!!!!!

All alternators will have these gaps even larger ones.
So when an alternator is on the upper portion of the sinusoid it is supplying the energy to the electrical system and the cap. When its on the downward portion of the sinusoid the cap provides the energy.

 

w00t caps.

A cap doesn't solve problems, getting a new alternator would be the best thing to do, but a cap won't make you lights dim anymore and will take some stress off the stock alternator.

Just remember, whatever you add to the electrical system in a car, the alternator is the thing thats going to be supplying them power, so if you add a cap, your alternator is going to have to give that power too when it needs it, along with your battery, subs, and whatever else you have. Getting a new alternator wouldn't be a bad thing if you plan on adding more electronics to your car. (I have the stock one for my accord and i have a 600 wrms amp, a 200 wrms, a 7 inch tv, dvd player, XM radio, fog lights, and EMS lights all running off it with a stock battery. However i do have a cap in my car, and my lights hardly dim, but they used to alot before. I have a thing in my car that monitors the batteries voltage, and durning some loud and deep bass hits, my battery discharges.. so i will mostlikely be getting a new high output alternator soon. I have never had a dead battery or starting problems at all though.) I'm also probably going to add a second deep cycle battery to my system with an isolator, to help the cause.

Theres a nice quick and easy answer for you. So, if you want your lights not to dim anymore, get a cap. If you want to not be paranoid and worry about your car then do the big 3 with a new alternator.

Good luck with your car.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">. It will make an audible difference. Wether or not your ear could tell is another story.</TD></TR></TABLE>

it's audible, but you can't hear it (your ear can't tell)? you can't be serious? By definition if it's audible, it's able to be picked up by your ear.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rcurley55 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
it's audible, but you can't hear it (your ear can't tell)? you can't be serious? By definition if it's audible, it's able to be picked up by your ear.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Your trying to take a complecated thing and over simplifying it.

Take an MP3 for example. These can be encoded at different bit rates.

128Kb/s
256Kb/s
384Kb/s
512Kb/s

There is an audible difference between all four can you tell the difference? Some people can but some can't. That doesn't mean there isn't an audible difference.

So if you can't hear a difference between a MP3 encoded at 512Kb/s and a CD that isn't a complete representation of the original (it is a sample as well) then what's the point of a CD?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sony224422 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
A cap doesn't solve problems, getting a new alternator would be the best thing to do, </TD></TR></TABLE> This is to general of a statement and is not accurate. In a specific instance it "may" be true.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sony224422 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Just remember, whatever you add to the electrical system in a car, the alternator is the thing thats going to be supplying them power.</TD></TR></TABLE> This is also inaccurate. An alternators output is not pure DC as I described above.

A cap does its jobs and solves the problems it was intended to. It will not however magically solve all your problems and neither will a alternator.


Modified by nsxxtreme at 2:41 PM 6/9/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nsxxtreme &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your trying to take a complecated thing and over simplifying it.

Take an MP3 for example. These can be encoded at different bit rates.

128Kb/s
256Kb/s
384Kb/s
512Kb/s

There is an audible difference between all four can you tell the difference? Some people can but some can't. That doesn't mean there isn't an audible difference.

So if you can't hear a difference between a MP3 encoded at 512Kb/s and a CD that isn't a complete representation of the original (it is a sample as well) then what's the point of a CD?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It doesn't have to be difficult. So let's hypothesize a bit....

If I measure the frequency response of a CD, then encode it to a 128bit, clearly we will see a different frequency response.

Are you stating again that we would see a frequency response by placing a capacitor inline with the amplifier?

One step further, are you stating that this change in frequencey is discernable?

I mean, if that was true, all of us SQ guys would be running capacitors right?

again - devil's advocate

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rcurley55 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It doesn't have to be difficult. So let's hypothesize a bit....
If I measure the frequency response of a CD, then encode it to a 128bit, clearly we will see a different frequency response.
Are you stating again that we would see a frequency response by placing a capacitor inline with the amplifier?
One step further, are you stating that this change in frequencey is discernable?
I mean, if that was true, all of us SQ guys would be running capacitors right?
again - devil's advocate</TD></TR></TABLE>
Your trying to corrilate hearing and seeing a difference. These are two seperate things.

Yes you will see (on a spectrum ananlyzer) a difference when you encode a MP3 but that was not what was said. Can you see the difference of a MP3 encoded at 512Kb/s and a CD yes you can. Its a sample of a sample of course you can. But can you "hear" a difference, probably not. Maybe a well trained ear but not by a normal person.

So people who dont know the Kb/s means kilobits per second. The size of a typical song on a CD is 40MB or 40 million Bytes there are 8 bits to a byte. When you create an MP3 you sample these bits at a rate of 524288 bits per second. This is a digital representation of an analog signal. There is some signal loss when creating an MP3 since you are sampling a sample. Then the explanation goes into DAC's and everyone falls asleep

Your other questions........
If you had the proper equipment and knew what you were looking for yes you would "see" the difference (however maybe minute). But you "probably" would not hear it as I keep saying. A well designed amplifier will have a fairly stiff supply to begin with. So adding a cap to these amplifiers to improve transients would have less of an effect then say a cheaper designed amplifier. All you need to do to convince yourself is to take a few high quality amplifiers apart. Look at the capacitor bank on the input, it will be large. Now take a cheap amplifier apart you will find fewer caps. Physical size of a cap means nothing. Look at the values. Engineers are not going to put the effort of creating board space and increasing cost to add those caps for no reason. They serve a specific task.

These caps also help reduce ripple voltage on the 12v line which is why your lights flicker. I described the cause of this previously.



Modified by nsxxtreme at 5:08 PM 6/9/2006

 

I've never known anyone to buy a cap to make their radio sound better. We sell them for two reasons, 1) so the customer can look and feel cool, 2) so the headlights and dash lights don't dim on the bass hits. The vast majority that we sell are unjustified. I NEVER push them, but if someone wants one, I don't question it.

Anyone can discern a 128 bit mp3 from the same song on CD! What are you crazy! I can discern 128 from 192... I would bet that's true of everyone. I don't even have good hearing. Just listen to the cymbals especially when other instruments are playing at the same time. 128 sounds like the band is playing underwater.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by suspendedHatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anyone can discern a 128 bit mp3 from the same song on CD! What are you crazy! I can discern 128 from 192... I would bet that's true of everyone. I don't even have good hearing. Just listen to the cymbals especially when other instruments are playing at the same time. 128 sounds like the band is playing underwater.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you missing the point. The point I was trying to make is in reference to this comment. <TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it's audible, but you can't hear it (your ear can't tell)? you can't be serious? By definition if it's audible, it's able to be picked up by your ear.</TD></TR></TABLE>

While some people have more sensitive ears then others not evryone listens the same way. Very few people would be able to tell the difference between an MP3 encoded at 512 Kb/s and a CD. There is definetly an audible difference between the two, just because one persons ear cant detect it doesn't mean there isn't an audible difference.

Everyone can agree a capacitor will reduce your lights from flickers yes? This is a visual improvement so its easy for us to detect. Now why did it reduce your lights from flickering? If you can take the answer, make the leap of thought and apply it to sound your golden. People have a problem when it comes to electricty because they cant, see, taste, smell, or feal it.

The problem with car audio is it gets dumbed down for normal people to understand. Then generalizations are made which furthers the problem, then sales people get in the mix now you have a mess.

If you have a specific question you dont understand please ask and I will "try" to help you understand. I dont put a huge amount of effort into answering questions on here because A)everyone wants a simple answer (its not always simple). B) people dont read, they read two line then just post. So its a waste of everyones time.