This is an idea I've been toying with for a while, but finally scratched it out on paper and decided to share with you guys. I did this because I don't like that dei alarms starter kill is rather easy to bypass. I'm 95% sure this is correct, but if someone notices an error, feel free to correct me and I'll edit the post.

Relay #1 (Latched Relay Reset Upon Alarm Arm)

30 - Constant, Tied to 86 on same relay

87a - Out to 86 on relay #2

85 - Factory alarm Rearm

86 - Constant, Tied to 30 on same relay

87 - Unused

Relay #2 ( Latched relay to re-enable starter on relay #3)

30 - Ground

87a - Unused

85 - Factory Alarm Disarm (from dei keyless/rs etc), also tied to 87 on same relay

86 - Tied to 87a on relay #1

87 - Out to 85 on relay #3, also tied to 85 on same relay

Relay #3 (Starter kill relay)

30 - Starter in

87a - Unused

85 - Tied to 87 on relay #2

86 - Ignition

87 - Starter out

Be forewarned, however, as I don't know whether disabling the alarm/rs/whichever with the valet switch would also pulse the fad. If that was the case, you would be sol if your battery died in your remote.

This starter kill should work out perfectly since there would be no draw upon arm, only upon disarm + ignition.

Watching thread - I'd majorly like to know this, I was disappointed to learn nearly every good alarm is normally closed "in case the alarm fails". I've considered similar things lately, thinking of hitting the relay right where the brain gets power at the harness, to make sure the brain's alive.

Subscribed.

Certain clifford alarms are normally open fyi.

Excellent - Have any particular model numbers? I'mma start Googling. I need to upgrade from my stealth-installed Matrix 1.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HT Search &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Your search for normally AND open returned 985 results.

The following words are too short or too common and were not included in your search: normally.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well isn't that helpful. :-)


Modified by Davus at 3:35 AM 9/4/2008

Clifford Arrow 5, Concept 450, Solaris 5, Intelliguard750, Avantguard 4, 5, and the new ones here - http://clifford.com/Products/CliffordG5.aspx

If you're willing to spend the money, get the AG5.1. It is well worth it. Normally open starter kill, ignition kill, a prox sensor that actually works well, tilt sensor, battery backup that is completely digital (so no key), remote start that is mt friendly, and other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting.

I'll almost certainly get that since I'm in the market for an upgrade. My install is pretty stealth'ish but I'm definitely not 'proud' of it. I need to just pull the dash instead of put it where I did. I'm sure I could get it in the $400 range from a dealer in the forums?

Edit: more like 500?

Edit: What the christ, 300? I'm seeing all sorts of prices. I'mma PM some DEI guys.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Davus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'll almost certainly get that since I'm in the market for an upgrade. My install is pretty stealth'ish but I'm definitely not 'proud' of it. I need to just pull the dash instead of put it where I did. I'm sure I could get it in the $400 range from a dealer in the forums?

Edit: more like 500?

Edit: What the christ, 300? I'm seeing all sorts of prices. I'mma PM some DEI guys.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm in the same boat man, I'm trying to find one myself. Most "clifford" dealers only carry the matrix stuff.

The Viper 5002, it's Python and Clifford equivalents, as well as several other DEI alarms (indicated by the 3 pin harness with green, green/white, and green/black wires and lack of a start-kill relay) give you the option of normally open or normally closed.

However, if you stealth install the alarm, there is no benefit to having it normally open vs normally closed. A stealth install requires that the alarm is hidden, it's wires are hidden, it has a hidden interior siren, and it has a battery backup.

If you put the alarm under the dash, then it makes no difference whether it's normally open or normally closed. The thief will go right to your start kill relay and use it to hotwire the car.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by baller status &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The Viper 5002, it's Python and Clifford equivalents, as well as several other DEI alarms (indicated by the 3 pin harness with green, green/white, and green/black wires and lack of a start-kill relay) give you the option of normally open or normally closed.

However, if you stealth install the alarm, there is no benefit to having it normally open vs normally closed. A stealth install requires that the alarm is hidden, it's wires are hidden, it has a hidden interior siren, and it has a battery backup.

If you put the alarm under the dash, then it makes no difference whether it's normally open or normally closed. The thief will go right to your start kill relay and use it to hotwire the car.</TD></TR></TABLE>
How exactly would you "hot wire" a car at the starter relay?
You may be able to crank the engine there but that will not start it, cranking the engine is the easiest thing to do, [no matter how stealth the install is or the type of or where the starter cut relay is located]. 94

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fcm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
How exactly would you "hot wire" a car at the starter relay?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Okay... let's say you're a bastard thief and you don't know anything specific about the wiring for the car you are stealing. Get to the ignition harness and grab the alarm's relay. It has a wire that is cut and interrupted by the relay. Clearly this is your starter wire. The relay will also be tapped into the ignition, and the constant will be ran to the alarm, all plainly obvious if you've ever seen the typical alarm install. Now you have your wires identified for you, it's a simple matter of re-connecting the starter wire; meanwhile leaving it exposed so you can touch it and the ignition wire to constant. The car will start. Disconnect the starter from the constant but leave it connected to the ignition. Break the steering wheel lock. Have a ball.

You can do this all by shoving bare wire in through the bottom of the base of the relay at the various pins.

As you can see, it makes no difference at all whether the relay is normally open or normally closed. The only difference is that the starter wire is at 87 vs 87a and the ground-when-armed is ground-when-disarmed.

I'm really surprised that I have to explain this to you. I think you're just challenging me but you already know the answer.

Mods, don't delete this. Every thief on earth knows it already. It's actually just common sense. It's about time everyone else knows so they see how vulnerable their install really is. Do a stealth install.

OIC, that of coarse would assume that you are using an ign. source for the relays coil, I have not done that for 20 years, I always use starter as the source for the relays coil, it prevents a crook from hot wiring a car at the starter relay, 94

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fcm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> OIC, that of coarse would assume that you are using an ign. source for the relays coil, I have not done that for 20 years, I always use starter as the source for the relays coil, it prevents a crook from hot wiring a car at the starter relay, 94 </TD></TR></TABLE>

That's a great idea. Never thought of that.

Yea, not sure why some/most alarm manufacturers still recommend using ign. as the source. 94


Modified by fcm at 7:33 PM 9/8/2008

All DEI alarms with external start kill have their relays wired for ignition control and share the ignition hookup for the input to the alarm.

Regardless of how the relay is wired, you can still use the wiring itself to hotwire the car. That was my point. It doesn't matter whether it's normally open or normally closed.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by baller status &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All DEI alarms with external start kill have their relays wired for ignition control and share the ignition hookup for the input to the alarm.

Regardless of how the relay is wired, you can still use the wiring itself to hotwire the car. That was my point. It doesn't matter whether it's normally open or normally closed.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I disagree. While in an ideal world, every alarm would be stealth installed, that isn't always the case. I'd rather have my own alarm not bypassable by simply ripping a ground out.

Yeah, this is my main concern too. Concern is wiring looms getting ripped up, alarm somehow being beaten to death, etc. I'd rather have to fix something to get car running again than bother with car suddenly being operable 24/7 with a dead alarm.

Also, fcm messed up his signature "[emoticon] 94" post ending!

Edit: Also he fixed it.


Modified by Davus at 4:32 PM 9/9/2008