spuddo01

Wazzup H-T i really need your help. My car has been in the body shop since july and they wont start working on it until i fix this problem. My car will not start unless i push start it. I have a 93 coupe with a 2nd gen JDM B16 swap. When i turn the key the starter only spins; it doesnt pop out to the flywheel to start up. I took off the starter and put it on another car and it started right up so it is not the starter. The flywheel teeth looks and feels fine from what i can see when i take the starter off. I do have an alarm system with auto start; could that be the problem? When the problem first started happening sometimes when i pump the clutch when tring to start it would start sometimes but it wont anymore. I am open to all suggestions i really want my car back i miss her i got JDM everything for the front because a was in an accident but i miss driving my car and i cant want to she her new look.
THE QUESTION IS COULD IT BE THE AUTO START.
Please help!!!!!!!!!

fcm

I don't think it has anything to do with the remote start, and everything to do with the starter motor or solenoid, even if it worked in another car, it sounds like the solenoid, [even though it is engaging, starter motor spins] is not pushing the starter motors drive gear far enough to connect and "turn" the flywheel.

Now why it's not doing so is the question, is it a problem with starter motor/ solenoid, you would think not, it works on another car, maybe it's "binding" in your motor, is it the right starter motor/solenoid for the JDM motor, is there a problem with the mounting of the flywheel in the JDM motor, or wrong flywheel.

If it did work properly at one time, [you say it started "intermittently" but stepping on the clutch would get it to work] and it slowly got worse I would have to say something has worn out, and if you say the gear teeth look good on both the flywheel and the starter motor, [maybe both a worn a little] or maybe it's the lever that "pops" the starter gear forwards onto the flywheel.

Try this, measure the distance from the mounting surface on the tranny, [that the starter motor sits up against] to the edge of the flywheel on your JDM and then do the same on the motor you put the starter into and it worked, see if there is a significant difference. 94

spuddo01

the starter is from that swap. what could it be that has gotten worst? could it be its not getting enough power to pop all the way out to the flywheel?

spuddo01

bump

fcm

No. I don't think so, as it will not make contact for the starter motor to get power, but if there is something mechanical worn out or binding, not allowing the gear to move forwards far enough for it to engage the flywheel, as far as I know the Honda starter motor is the same as most starter motor/solenoids, the power "switch" is closed after gear is all the way forward, what I mean is when solenoid is energized it drives the starter motor gear forward and only when the solenoid "piston" is at the end of it's travel does the starter motor power switch close,
Normally if there is not enough power you get the "click", [enough power to energize solenoid but not enough to spin the starter motor] or you get the "click, click, click, click", [very low power, only enough to energize solenoid but not even enough to keep it energized when connection is made to the starter motor.

The question here is why will it work on another motor and not yours, and I can only come up with a mechanical problem when installed in your motor, and because of that the first thing I would check is distance to flywheel from mounting surface on both motors, making sure the gear is not somehow binding, put motor in vice and power it up, you can use jumper cables and just trigger the solenoid from the main power connection, ground can go anyplace on motor. 94

spuddo01

i dont think the mounting has naything to do with it because that was the starter that came with the swap and i never took it off; htis problem came out of nowhere. its a P30 starter which is from a b16.could it be a wire running to the starter and its not giving it enough power to pop the gear out all the way? i just know im getting frustrated cause no one knows what is causing my problem.

wrx-killer-Sti-eater

iTrader: (1)

I had this problem in my da. It had to do with the key switch. The contacts were bad and was not allowing enough current to pop out the starter, I did a temp fix and never went back to fix the real prob but it works so well, I just threw a relay at the starter to provide power straight from the battery to engauge the starter. I know this was ghetto but I was stuck. I would do what fcm told you to do. But I would go this rout. put a battery charger on the battery. Take 12 volt from the batttery with a peice of good wire. Touch the starter signal wire on the starter. bam it should turn. This is a little easier then putting a jumper cable down there because the fit is tight. and you don't really want to play the sparky game. Let us know how it went.

spuddo01

all man i will try this as soon as i can if i cant do ill just tell my dad to do it. man if this work i will be so happy man. good lookin. ill let yall know how it goes.

spuddo01

i did what you told me to do and the starter didnt even spin but when i turned the key it spins. i think its the alarm.

LI_mechanic

Put a fresh battery battery(freshly charged or new), try turning on the car. Does it just click? You said you had a remote start right? What might have happened is that there is a Starter Kill Switch, and when you turn the key, nothing happens. I would disconnect the Remote start system and try that. Most likely it is that.

fcm

Although anything is possible, I still do not think it has anything to do with the alarm, as power is obviously still getting from the ign. switch to the starter motor relay and then the solenoid, [starter motor is spinning], with an alarm there are a few ways that a "starter cut" can be installed, but all are designed to keep the power from the ign. switch from getting to the starter solenoid, to do so normally a relay is installed on the "starter wire" from the ign. switch, wire is cut and the two ends are connected to the 2 N/C, [normally closed] terminals of the relay, [30 and 87a] when the alarm is triggered the relay gets a "signal" from the alarm to open, power can no longer pass through relay, you have "starter cut", however this is not the case with your car, power is getting to the starter motor solenoid.

The only way to make sure it is not a problem with anything before the solenoid, is to bypass all of that, and the way you do that is to make the connection directly from the batt. (+) to the solenoid, there are only 2 wires going to the starter motor, the main batt. power cable, this is what supplies the starter motor with it's power, it is the thicker of the 2 wires, the other wire, probably black/white is much thinner 10ga or 12ga, it is the wire that comes from the starter motor relay and the ign. switch, disconnect this wire from solenoid, then using a jumper wire from the batt. pos. term. touch it to the terminal on the solenoid that you removed the thinner wire from, make sure car is out of gear, or in park.

If you already tried to do that and nothing happened you are not doing it properly, we already know that if you use the key you can get the starter motor to "spin" so if you jump from the batt. directly to the solenoid the starter motor should at least "spin".

If you do it properly and all that happens is the starter motor still only spins then there is nothing wrong with any of the wiring, starter relay or the ign. switch, and the alarm has nothing to do with the problem, if on the other hand when you do the "jump" and the car motor does turn over, then it is a current problem to the solenoid, and it may be a problem with the starter cut relay, the starter motor relay, the ign. switch or the wiring or connections between the ign. switch and the solenoid. But you will not know unless you bypass it all and go directly to the starter motor solenoid. 94

spuddo01

thanx man ill try it again.

spuddo01

i tried it again and it still spins. it sounds like it does pop out to. anymore ideas.

fcm

Well if "jumping" directly from the batt. to the solenoid gets the same result as using the key then there is no problem with the ign. switch, starter relay, any of the wiring, and the alarm has nothing to do with it, as I thought.

The problem has to be in the solenoid or the way the gear "pops" out to mesh with the flywheel, [that's not happening], there are, as I said, a few reasons that this is not happening, the main one being the solenoid, or solenoid lever, or something binding keeping the gear from coming all the way out.

Because Honda uses different types of starter motors, direct drive, [starter gear at end of starter motor shaft] like on a g2 teg 1.8L, and gear drive, [starter gear is in gear housing "offset" from starter motor shaft] like in my g3 teg 1.8L, I need to know what type you have. 94

spuddo01

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fcm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Well if "jumping" directly from the batt. to the solenoid gets the same result as using the key then there is no problem with the ign. switch, starter relay, any of the wiring, and the alarm has nothing to do with it, as I thought.

The problem has to be in the solenoid or the way the gear "pops" out to mesh with the flywheel, [that's not happening], there are, as I said, a few reasons that this is not happening, the main one being the solenoid, or solenoid lever, or something binding keeping the gear from coming all the way out.

Because Honda uses different types of starter motors, direct drive, [starter gear at end of starter motor shaft] like on a g2 teg 1.8L, and gear drive, [starter gear is in gear housing "offset" from starter motor shaft] like in my g3 teg 1.8L, I need to know what type you have. 94

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it is a P30 starter from a second gen jdm b16. and remember i did put the stater on another car; it was an LS and it started right up.

spuddo01

bump

fcm

Does it look like this... http://replacement.car-stuff.c...e#top
or this... http://replacement.car-stuff.c...e#top

One is direct the other is "offset" gear reduction, or maybe you can find the exact one here... http://www.car-stuff.com/starter.htm 94

spuddo01

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fcm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Does it look like this... http://replacement.car-stuff.c...e#top
or this... http://replacement.car-stuff.c...e#top

One is direct the other is "offset" gear reduction, or maybe you can find the exact one here... http://www.car-stuff.com/starter.htm 94</TD></TR></TABLE>

it doesnt look like any of them its the stock one and it is gear reduction and i did but it on a b18b and it worked and i took it to two starter shops and they bench checked it and it works even one of the guys took it apart to check the gear and he said it was fine.

fcm

Well you have already done what I would have asked you to do next, [take it to a shop and have it checked] that only leaves your car as the problem, you are sure that the flywheel is OK no missing teeth or worn out, have you tried moving flywheel off the spot it's in?

Because you have had shops check it I will assume the drive gear on starter motor is in good shape.

I would still check the distance from the transmission mounting surface for starter motor, to fly wheel and then the distance from starter motor mounting surface to end of drive gear when it is fully extended.

Also how is the engine ground, [batt. to transmission housing]? 94

spuddo01

ground is good. but i dont understand about the distance how could the distance change.

fcm

It can't, but if it was just making contact, [drive gear to flywheel gear] and the flywheel gear has worn out along it's starter motor side, it can no longer make contact, so knowing how much of the drive gear is making contact with the flywheel gear is important, if the drive gear just barely reaches the flywheel when full extended then that may be the problem, the only other thing I can think of is something is keeping the drive gear from moving all the way out when mounted on your motor, to find out all you can do is eliminate all the possibilities.

You have ruled out an electrical problem.
You have ruled out the alarm as the problem.
You have ruled out the ign. switch as the problem.
You have ruled out the starter as the problem.

So now rule out that it's the wrong starter to begin with, by seeing if the drive gear can reach the flywheel properly.

Rule out that the flywheel is not missing teeth or is worn out.

If all the above have been ruled out it only leaves you with something is keeping the drive gear from moving all the way out to mesh with the flywheel gear. 94

spuddo01

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fcm &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It can't, but if it was just making contact, [drive gear to flywheel gear] and the flywheel gear has worn out along it's starter motor side, it can no longer make contact, so knowing how much of the drive gear is making contact with the flywheel gear is important, if the drive gear just barely reaches the flywheel when full extended then that may be the problem, the only other thing I can think of is something is keeping the drive gear from moving all the way out when mounted on your motor, to find out all you can do is eliminate all the possibilities.

You have ruled out an electrical problem.
You have ruled out the alarm as the problem.
You have ruled out the ign. switch as the problem.
You have ruled out the starter as the problem.

So now rule out that it's the wrong starter to begin with, by seeing if the drive gear can reach the flywheel properly.

Rule out that the flywheel is not missing teeth or is worn out.

If all the above have been ruled out it only leaves you with something is keeping the drive gear from moving all the way out to mesh with the flywheel gear. 94
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Well its a P30 starter which comes with the B16 so its the right starter.

And the flywheel teeth look good and feel fine to me put even if it does could it still be messed up.

Ps thanks fcm you been helping me since day one; we are going to find out this problem together hopfully soon.

fcm

Well if everything else is good that only leaves somethings keeping drive gear from moving all the way forwards. 94

spuddo01

i dont think thats it baceause remember one guy took it apart and he said its fine.

fcm

Well something is keeping the drive gear on the starter motor from moving out far enough to mesh with the flywheel gear, and the only thing I can think of is the flywheel is too far away, so even if the drive gear is moving out all the way, it's just not reaching it, that's why measuring the distance to the flywheel and how far the drive gear comes out would eliminate that as the problem.

I just checked the extra one that I have for a 94 1.8l LS motor, [I have a spare] it is also an offset gear reduction one, and the drive gear only moves out just a hair over a 1/2" the contact area on the drive gear is just under a 1/2" that tells me that when mounted the end of drive gear is within an 1/8" of flywheel, and the end of the drive gear is about 1.5" from the starter motors mounting surface, and low and behold when I check the distance from starter motors mounting surface on tranny housing the flywheel in just a hair over 1.5" away.

So if You have checked the measurements on your starter motor and flywheel and they are within the movement of the starter motors drive gear. that would only leave the drive gear not moving out as the problem, for whatever reason it's not moving out. 94