Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (Floyd)
 

I thought it was 30-35 mil recently too, but I hear he's getting paid 80-85 mil now.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (manveer)
 

I believe it is 85 million with endorsements.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 team suck! (Prelussion)
 

actually it is operated 365 days a year, 24 hours a day most days in shift work.shumi is the highest paid athleate in the world.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (B-DIDDYR2K)
 

I got to meet J.P. Montoya a few years back when he raced for Target Chip Ganassi...He comes across as an asshole, but he's really a nice guy.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck! (HONDAF1)
 

Remember it took Honda a few years in CART to dominate. In F1 they haven't done shit since the great Aryton Senna drove for them. They took some time off and will be dominant again in a few years. http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (Raz1983)
 

Then your strong doubts are wrong. There was an NSR750 was sold outside the US. It went for i think 50Gs(possibly more) and had full carbon fiber fairinga along with the oval piston motor and tons of other super trick stuff on it.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (B-DIDDYR2K)
 

it took BMW AND Williams 2 years to run with Ferrari and stomp Mclaren Mercedes.
2 years and they outpower the Ferrari. That says a lot about how far behind Honda is in F1.

another problem at Honda is that they should have gone back to McLaren and kissed their ass to repartner with them instead of choosing a midpack team (Jordan) and an unproven team (BAR). Frentzen won 2 races for Jordan in the Mugen Honda 3 yr ago and ended up 3rd in the championship behind Irvine and Hakkinen. At least Trulli ran at the front last year (if he left thestarting line) in the Jordan before some electronics glitch or hydraulic failure happened or the tranny went or the engine grenaded in flames. He at least got the front row in qualifying at Monaco and got some 4th-6th places. This year they are running 14th -19th place!! They're going backwards!! Both Honda teams!

Oh and there's the Malcolm Oastler fiasco:

Oastler really messed up the design of last year's car. They said the suspension pick up points to the tub flexed so much that the car would understeer and then suddenly transition oversteer all in one corner! It was so unpredictable how the suspension behaved that it would do one thing one day and then another thing another day. Suspension corrections can't cure a problem if the goalposts keep moving. It was made pretty public how much Oastler f*cked up the BAR design. JV called the car a stillborn in preseason of last year. Honda apparently discovered the flex problem just before Monza last year and partially corrected it. This is why they brought out a new chassis at that anniversary race at Monza...under the disguise of a commemorative chassis when in fact it was a correction of a blatant engineering f*ck up. When that was made public at the start of this year, you knew the writing was on the wall for Malcolm.

Something is definitely wrong at the top management for Honda...something has changed. You can tell the bland police and beancounters have taken over from the hardcore racers. Look at the RSX suspension and the "new" NSX and you see what I mean.....Mr Honda is rolling in his grave....

F1 http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/h-emblem1.gif http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthdown.gif

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (Michael Delaney)
 

If all what you say is true that is really sad. But what would be the point of putting in 210 million if your "heart" was not in it, other than the obvious marketing potential. But what marketing of Honda is it really though, if you keep getting your ass handed to you by Sauber and Minardi. I believe the whole Honda F1 effort went bad when the guy in charge (sorry don't remember his name or position) died a few years back. After that they decided against a sole effort and teamed with BAR. In all it just plain sucks for us Honda fans, especially now that Honda is leaving CART after this season.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (HONDAF1)
 

Isn't CART basically going to become a nonentity soon anyway?

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (manveer)
 

Yeah eventually it will merge with the IRL. Meaning low tech, which Honda does not want to be involved with anyways. On the bright side when Honda was successful in F1 in the late 80's early 90's their sole auto racing budget (well atleast the majority) and passion was devoted to F1. Probably a stretch to make the correlation between the two, but what the hell! I will sacrifice CART for worldwide success in F1. http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (HONDAF1)
 

Fuck Honda. That company has lost its soul. They should just merge with Toyota and get it over with.

JV's a great driver, but he's got shit for luck. Poor bastard.

I'm glad to have Williams/BMW to cheer for. I've always liked Monty. Too bad Rob Walker is out of the game. His "dream team" of JPM and Coulthard would be interesting, to say the least.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (MK Ultra)
 

Merge with Toyota? Thats going just a little bit overboard. Honda atleast has/had "soul." Toyota just throws their big bag of cash where ever Honda goes just so they can sell more Camrys, and Corollas. http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthdown.gif

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck
 

BIGDIDDYR2K:

I've shut down almost all of your anti-F1 comments on every other F1 related thread that you responded to, and you had no reply. Then when a new thread pops up you recycle the same garbage again. Im getting tired of it.

to the others:

Dont forget tires is the #1 factor in F1 this season. Both Honda teams are on Bridgestones which were at a disadvantage at Malaysia and Brazil. When we get to a track where Bridgestone has the upper hand I'm sure I'll hear people say "Hey that Honda engine got better!"

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (NegativeLift)
 

Bridgestones only seem at the disadvantage when there on any other car but Schumi's. Although many Bridgestones were out of the race when the checkers came out they still won.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (NegativeLift)
 

you havent shut down shit!!!! I just grow tired of arguing what is obviously a moot point to you people, hence i stop replying. I have my opinion, I state it and I let you decide. You WILL NOT change my mind about F1. Its way too full of itself for me. The drivers are over paid and the points system sucks. If you finish a race, you should be rewarded. None of this droping out to clear the way for the rest of the racers because we wont get any points so why bother crap. Finish = points.

Maybe they could have an interesting race if they had the same engine... Oh you cant do that, then people might actually have to DRIVE instead of spend millions on making a faster car to make up for it and technology wont be advanced!!! PLBBBBBBB!!!! Like I give a rats ass.

Any given Sunday, 25 NASCAR racers stand a chance at winning the race. The lead changes at least 10 times and they run closer for longer at higher speeds. Any given F1 day, Maybe 3 or 4 stand a chance at winnning, They all lad and follow the pole sitter and MAYBE pass when he pits if they choose not to, but they get passed when they have to pit anyway. Its slow and meticulous. Racing is the opposite. Fast and unpredictable. F1 is not fast enough or unpredictable enough to entice me into watching it.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (B-DIDDYR2K)
 

Some excellent points you make B-DIDDYR2K. The last 5 laps of an IRL, NASCAR, and even a CART race are much more exciting than watching the same driver cruise to victory in F1 every other week.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (schumiR)
 

quote

I got to meet J.P. Montoya a few years back when he raced for Target Chip Ganassi...He comes across as an asshole, but he's really a nice guy.
_______

i also met montoya last year in indianapolis, in person he is really cool, even signed a 1/18 replica of his car for me. i just hope he gives shumi a run for his money this year, http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (VADE-R)
 

That's all okay ....... it works in circles.

Many years in the early '90's, when Ferrari was finally back in the sport, they sucked azz ...... for those of us who have always cheered for the Prancing Horse, this is just rewards for staying loyal .......

Honda will be back again in time.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (TypeR0207)
 

Yep your right it is all cyclical. It just sucks that Honda is on the downward part of it. Honda (BAR and Jordan) will probably not compete with the likes of Ferrari and Williams for at least two years.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (B-DIDDYR2K)
 

I don't mind statements of opinion but you also use many facts which are untrue.

You are confusing competition with a good show. What you want is a show, so you watch nascar. I want to see true competiton so I watch F1.

When an F1 team is losing, their engineers work overtime to come up with solutions. When a nascar manufacturer is losing they send a few lobbyists to plead with the sanctioning body for help.

Passing in nascar is a farce. There really is only one pass for the lead at the last 40 laps or so and that driver hangs on for victory.

So in the end, you get your 'unpredictablity', but that is entertainment, and not racing.

When a team wins the FIA F1 World Championship is is because they had the best combination of car and driver. Don't even bring up the money issue, manyt examples exist of teams with money and little success.

To conclude, I dont want to chagne your opinion. Watch all the nascar you want. I watch it too. But get your facts straight or I'll continue to straighten them out for you.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (NegativeLift)
 

This sounds like a real rivalry between the two of you. Nothing like a good arguement though. http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emthup.gif

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck! (HONDAF1)
 

210 mill is diddly in F1... Marlboro alone gave up somethin like 500mill for 4 years too ferrari, and thats just 1 of their sponsors....Toyota spends way more too
Coincidentally they are the only two that manufacture their own engines and chasis

Between two teams i might add...105 mill apeice.
The engine is a structually HUGE part of the chasiss and you can't possibly optimize it for two diff teams
They need to Ditch Bar and get Villenuve to EJs team.....then we'll be in!

Jody-who's Tifosi to the bone!


[Modified by EagleR, 7:59 PM 4/3/2002]

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck! (EagleR)
 

Well according to Formula 1 magazine, http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/020308/113/ctjdy.html owned by Bernie Eccelstone, Honda is the biggest spender in F1. Honda contributes only to BAR's chassis development.


[Modified by HONDAF1, 9:53 AM 4/5/2002]

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck! (HONDAF1)
 

http://media.poly.edu/mechanical/pag...suspension.cfm Just clearing a couple of things up. The link above is an article on race car suspension (as well as a mention of actibe suspention, outlawed by F1) and includes a pic of the Brabham "sucker car" with a huge fan on the back to suck air from under the car and stick it to the ground.
http://e-hobbyland.com/tamhonnr750.html Ah and here's a link to the Tamiya model of the oval-pistoned 8 valve per cylinder, 2 rod per piston Honda NR 750 (Not nsr750...)

And with the firing of Craig Pollock at BAR, there's been an enormous restructuring. He wasn't allowed to fire people on the design side. He would have made changes years ago, had he been allowed. now with David Richards at the helm, he's allowed to make all the changes he'd like. Finally, we may see some results, though they suggest it'll take time...


[Modified by Its_real&its_spectacular, 9:24 AM 4/5/2002]

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck! (Its_real&its_spectacular)
 

Interesting info, especially the bike. http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emsmileo.gif

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck
 

BIGDIDDYR2K i trust you've read my post (9:38 PM 4/2/2002) and have nothing to say.

Id like to add that as far as BAR is concerned don't forget their new tech. dir. is none other than William's former chief aero man Geoff Willis. This should bring results in the chassis department relatively quickly for the BAR005. I don't think we'll see much more out of the 004.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (NegativeLift)
 

more info

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns06024.html

looks like there is hope, if only a little

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (NegativeLift)
 

the main problem with the new honda engine is the fact that honda's engineers have deviated from their traditional school of thought by producing a compact, super light weight powerplant as opposed to a big heavy engine which could produce plenty of power for the entire race. also, a 90 degree vee angle was introduced to match the rest of the field (mclaren has converted to a 90 degree vee angle and renault is at the extreme end of the spectrum with a 111 degree angle). at these great angles, the engines are subject to vibrations which lead to obvious problems. essentially, they overestimated the importance of weight saving and physical size. raw horsepower is far more important than saving a few pounds at the expense of a few ponies.

another huge problem can be found in the aerodynamics of both the BAR and Jordan cars. last year, the sauber team introduced independent lower front suspension mounts. this creates a huge space underneath the nose through which air could flow. this means a smoother air flow over the front wing. BAR's 004 car does not employ this revolutionary suspension setup (which by the way greatly aided sauber in finishing 4th in last years constructors championship). jordan, on the other hand, has incorporated the main points of this front suspension idea on its EJ12. however, they have encountered trouble in its design and had to add a support beam running between the two mounts, creating aerodynamic inefficiency.

so, yes, it looks like both honda teams will just have to suck it up this season and watch montoya and the schumacher brothers battle it out for the championship.

-jeremy

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (I Drive A Saturn)
 

Requiem for a fallen star:

you can make up all the excuses you want about cycles and angles/compactness. BMW entered with a clean sheet on the same day as Honda. The starter's pistol goes off and the think tank race begins. Just Do It Baby. Just Win. In 2 years BMW wins Sebring and LeMans. In 2 years, they win in F1 and dethrone Mercedes as a Ferrari rival.

I read in Racecar Engineering Magazine that the new BMW engine block has NO MAIN BEARINGS. Less oil. Less Parasitic Drag. This is why they can squeeze out the extra rpms. They reverted back to aluminum blocks in the FW24 from titanium blocks last year...that's a sure sign that they are testing the feasibility of a production block with no main bearings!! over 18,500 rpm and more than 850 hp this year (those are last year's confirmed numbers). They're going for reliability this year. I hate BMW but they make just as wicked engines as Honda does. And they aren't spending the $$ Honda does up front. They let Williams do some of that.

Sorry, I'm a loyal Honda follower but you have to call a spade a spade...they suck this year big time so far. They suspposedly will have a more powerful version of the RA002E for Imola next week after finding the reliability acceptable.

BTW I think there confusion is over Oastler (technical director) and Reynard (owner-partner) on this thread. Reynard's chassis dominated F3000 and CART but sucked in F1. He was co-director with Pollock for BAR. His company went bankrupt and solvent at the beginning of this month!



[Modified by Michael Delaney, 7:37 PM 4/6/2002]

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (I Drive A Saturn)
 

Good point but Williams also does not use that mounting for its suspension and obviously they are doing quite well.

As for BMW vs. Honda, again I wonder if Honda's philosophy of letting young engineers rotate in and out of the F1 program is hurting them. Perhaps that can't be done these days. They need their best people on the case if they want to fight BMW and that is not happening now.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (NegativeLift)
 

No i just didnt make it a point to look for the post anymore.

Call my opinion what ever you want, but as far as I am concerned, my facts are correct and need no straightening out.

NASCAR passing = farce. Umm yea. This statement coming from a guy who is defending a series where most passes occur because the guy in front blows up. NASCAR passing a farce? Yea its really easy to pass someone doing 1MPH faster than the guy you are trying pass. Yea thats alot easier than driving by the guy who has pulled off because his "technologically advanced" motor blew up.

So i guess that all the wind tunnel work that the NASCAR engineers do doesnt count. Hmm whatever. Like the guys at F1 arent sending people around to make sure that everybody else is playing fair. That must never happen.

So what is it when a guy wins a NASCAR championship? A farce as you put it? Must be because they dont use engineers instead lawyers and its all a farce. I guess when Schummacher sent people to have Villnuve's outside pass of him taken away, that was him and hus engineers working overtime on the motor?

Im done with this argument. I will continue to think F1 blow a big fat one because as far as I am concerned it does. Boring, overpaid, arrogant foriegners do not make for good competition for me.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (NegativeLift)
 

This thread will never die! Lets keep it going until the next race. (San Marino) http://images.zeroforum.com/smile/emwink.gif

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (B-DIDDYR2K)
 

Just because MS made you cry doesnt mean you have to hate F1.


And dont tell me about nascar wind tunnel testing

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (NegativeLift)
 

Sounds like someone is jealous that I got to meet the so called great... Jealousy is an awful thing. Congrats on being an ass. Tell the guy you think he is great and he will just as soon spit in your american face because he thinks he is better than you...

The guy is a jackass plain and simple. Being that I live in America, vote and pay my taxes, Im allowed to do whatever I want and hate whoever I want for whatever reason I want. I choose to hate it because the drivers are assholes, the cars are WAY overpriced, they think their shit dont stink and I hate watching a parade that calls itself competition.

Just becasue NASCAR drives around in a circle doesnt mean you have to hate it...

Any reason you guys can up with on why I should like F1, I can come up with the same reasons why you should like NASCAR. I dont give a flying fuck about so called technology that is oh so great, I dont give a rats ass about what foreign driver is driving some other foreign guys car. It just doesnt matter or appeal to me. If that makes me a redneck, so be it. At least Im not Euro-trash...

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (B-DIDDYR2K)
 

I never said i hate nascar, and i dont.

And i dont care what you like to watch.

But the fact is that NASCAR is designed towards entertainment and F1 is intended to be pure competition. That is FACT not opinion. If you want clarification read my earlier posts.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (NegativeLift)
 

Thought I would resurrect this topic. Considering Honda once again failed to gain points. Although JV almost got there in 7th. More utter failures for Jordan though.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (HONDAF1)
 

Well I figured there would been more engine failures because reported for this race Honda had revised the engine slightly for about 10+-hp and increase of the rev range of about 1,000rpms over previous verison.

Toyota was actually playing with brand new aero nose wing and rear wing and also new engine management controls to make the car abit more drivable but apparently the electronics went out and both cars had to come in and DNF because of bugs still in the sys. maybe they will be worked out before the next race.

McLaren's needs new engine to keep them up there fighting with the Ferraris and Williams instead they spent 2 mil. on damn com. booth...which they should went into engine R&D or how to get more hp out of that lump.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (HONDAF1)
 

Qualifying positions were improved for both Honda teams, and 7th is the highest place yet in a race this year. So while they arent at the necessary level, they are improving. This was apparently a bad track for Michelin though so running on Bridgestones may have caused a lot of the improved performance.

Re: OT: Honda Formula 1 teams suck (NegativeLift)
 

There is interesting article about Honda's engine development problems here: http://beta.vtec.net/forums/one-mess...sage%5fid=6840

It looks like by Montreal there expected power will be online in the new engine.