Im doing more and more research on B18s and I'm starting to wonder if a swap is really worth doing if you have a Non-Vtec B18 or B20 in your Car. Regardless of the make and model of the shell... or if its better to do a non vtec swap instead of Vtec to save cash.

Im running into 2 arguments from forums, youtube, etc...

1. That Non-Vtec can actually be "BETTER" than a Vtec motor.

Main reason why is because the Vtec engine actually doesnt get its power until past 4500 RPM on most Vtec engines.

A moderately built NonVtec will have its power throughout the powerband and have more torque than a stock Vtec swap. Thus, costing less and having more power.

2. Doing research on light builds like cams etc. and get same power as a GSR except with wider powerband... & its cheaper than a swap





So. This will be information used to help others

Thanks

 

If you dont want a motor with Vtec then go turbo. I honestly think its pointless to build a N/a non vtec motor. Yeah its for the love of it but you wont be fast enough.

 

This has been discussed plenty of times before, and a quick search on HT will quickly reveal that. You will have all the facts you need in order to accurately make the right judgement.

Instead of going through it all now, since you can search for it, i can sure you tell you one thing: mating a b16 or ITR tranny to a b18b motor will net better performance results than any other "bolt on" you can think of.

 

Exactly. It is extremely hard to build a b18b in order to fulfill the power needs that a VTEC motor essentially can give you in stock form. The best bet, would be to go turbo. It honestly makes more sense to do that instead and is the best alternative and bang for the buck.

 

Yes. This is true.
Its best to any N/A isnt it?
Hows the B16 going past the 1/4 mile though?
Will the LS go further??

The thing is to determine if you want something thats going to be good on the street as well as the strip. Depending on what youre looking for.

My buddy had a short geared tranny and he was hitting Vtec all of freaking the time. It was kind of annoying on the highway and street.
l

HT QuickSearch sucks real bad. lol
Im going to be honest. I didnt even bother because Ive tried to search simple things on the quicksearch and things irrelevant come up to what I'm usually searching for.

 

Heres a given arguement that I read on some page. I still havent found anything that gave a reasonable explanation, just what theyre for... Why does Toda Make Vtec Killing Cams?

People say stupid things related to this topic. LOL

 

The b18b is helped tremendously by the shorter gears of the above mentioned trannies. They allow for the motor to hit the torque much quicker than the long gears on the LS counterpart. I mean, dont go around believing that a b18b with b16 tranny is the way to go in order to make up for the lack of vtec. However, it is more of a "help" in order for the motor to reach its full potential much sooner and keep up with the vtec motors mated with their OWN trannies. A GSR with a b16 is obviously the next instance i would bring up...but you already know where Im getting at lol

 

The VTEC killer cams were designed so they can be used in conjunction with different rocker arms. It is a whole system made especially for the VTEC motor, not to eliminate VTEC. That is common misconception, but instead it actually eliminates the middle VTEC lobe on the intake cams in order to keep the car in VTEC all the time.
This system is designed for optimal low and mid range torque and power as well as some top end, when compression is bumped and combined with high revving components.
This is why it is recommended that you use high compression and various other internal parts in order to make it work. I have read all about it and seen the Best Motoring where they actually went through the whole system and how it works.

BTW, You can never compare the flowing characteristics of a p75 head and the pr3/p72 heads. That is where the engineering shines. Thats where the whole difference is.

 

FINALLY SOMEONE THAT ACTUALLY knows what the hell theyre talking about

Thanks!

 

Its not about going ALL OUT N/a. Its not what Im referring to.

Its about getting the same power as a stock Vtec motor on the B18's and B20's

We have people swapping their engine for a $2000 and $3000 B18C or B16A. And keeping it stock...

Whats the point, if you can get around the same HP with a pretty simple build costing around $1000 and a good tune. That is, if you were planning on keeping the Vtec swap STOCK

Especially a B16 with less torque and HP. You can get B16 HP with Cams and bolts ons right?

 

If you're just trying to build a non vtec motor to have the same Hp as a stock vtec motor then IMHO its yeah you get my point. But by all means go for it. Its just my opinion doesnt mean you gotta live by it.

 

Being in vtec all the time doesnt make it a vtec motor, it makes it a non vtec motor that runs the same cam profile all the time. People dont seem to understand that vtec was designed to combine both performance and drive-ability in the same package. The low rpm cam gives you great gas mileage and and decent power, while the high rpm cam gives you more hp at the expense of fuel economy, should you need to rev your car that high. It is true that the vtec heads are designed for better flow yes, but thats because the high rpm cam profile needs that flow rating for when the motor is revving that high. Everyone always assumes that VTEC is the almighty be all end all of engine design, and quite frankily its not. Ive never subscribed to the ultra high revving 8000rpm+ engine design, as cool as they sound, and its served me well for many years making and using engines with alot more usable power on the street and for drag racing. Im sure honda's high revving motors are great for track use however, as honda's original designs are all based around their motorcycle racing, and their engine designs bring that principle of high revs in mind for the same purpose. Track racing.

 

I understand your own opinion and why.

But I dont understand the logic of the people that swap out their current non-vtec B18 for a Vtec engine to keep it stock.
Might as well upgrade your current engine for less cash
for the same result.

If an engine were to blow, then yea. Swap in that B18C or B16A.
If your engine is perfectly healthy and want around the same power of a stock Vtec "like most people want & have", then just do the upgrades to the head, piping & bolt ons to your B18.

 

That's the issue. You won't get the same result for less money.

A B18B built enough to make the same whp as a stock B18C1 won't idle nicely, won't get decent milage, won't pass smog (if necessary), will produce low power in the low RPM range, and will cost quite a bit more than the swap will.

Unless we're talking going with forced induction.

 

Thats absolute nonsense, the B18C1 makes exactly 20 more hp then the b18b1 at 1000 more rpm, even simple modifications will make the b18b1 faster then the GSR any day. I spent 950 dollars on a used JRSC supercharger kit and I pass inspection (smog), idle perfectly, and make 50+ more hp then a b18c even on a bad day. I know someone that spent 1500 dollars investing in a GSR swap for his LS teg because it was all about the "vtec yo" and he gained nothing.

 

Long story short to summarize, if you want to do track racing, go vtec, aim for high end power, if you want to eat people up in a straight line, go non-vtec. Thats basically the whole moral of the story. Ive seen countless races of vtec cars vs non vtec cars and the non vtec cars always win in a straight line, by lengths.

 

Supercharger = forced induction

Which is why I stated
And since when is 170 (crank on a B18C1) only 20 more than 142 (crank on a B18B1), and since when is 7,600 RPM (peak power on a B18C1) only 1000 more than 6,300 (peak on a B18B1)?

It ain't all about "vtak y0", and I hate the ricers who think so as much if not more than most, but gaining 28hp isn't "nothing" either. Adding 28hp with "bolts ons" is actually rather difficult, unless you count a supercharger a "bolt on" (and many would not).

 

The B18b1 revs to 6800 and has a redline of 7k. The B18C1 revs to 7600 and has a redline of 8000rpm. I know what you said about the forced induction, but the 28 (excuse me) more hp that a vtec motor makes is at the expense of torque, and a usuable power band unless you consider staying at extremely high RPM constantly "usuable". A solid tuned header on a B18B1 will yield 10 additional hp (im not talking about no DC sports or megan racing crap) and by tuned i mean RMF or one of the many other replicas going around these days. And an intake opens up the B18B ALOT, enough for a noticeable change in exhaust note due to increased air volume.

I would also remind you that the 28 additional HP that the b18c1 makes is due to a large number of factors, including 10:1 compression vs the b18b's 9.2:1 compression, larger cams, and higher flowing heads. All of which yield nearly twice the amount of HP gain if you were to make the same modifications to the B18B1. In my opinion, the B18B1 is a much more viable engine. But again, strictly speaking in terms of how your gona use it, that makes the entire difference on which engine to use.

 

It comes down to preference. Do you want to go the cheap something for nothing way or do you want hondas trademark well engineered dohc vtec motor.........for those of us who have been in the game for awhile deciding to go vtec or not is not a much of a decision. I mean an LS is def a step up from single cam and has tons of performance options but to each his own.

 

if u go non-vtec theirs always the option of doing an ls/vtec or a b20/vtec. non-vtec motor swaps r cheaper, and head swaps r not that hard to do, a good power gain too, and alot of ppl use the b20/vtec for high power app boost and N/A.

 

Yeah but Ls-Vtec requires money and quite a bit of work if you want it to last and run reliably, its more then just throwing a vtec head on an LS block for the money and time you would most likely be better off just starting with a vtec motor.

 

https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-motor-naturally-aspirated-44/205-whp-ls-graph-inside-pump-gas-93-oct-2176287/

and people think 1.8l non vtec motors cant make power. yes they have everything right but the non vtec motors can make power!

 

of course it can, the GSR merely starts with a better deck of cards from the factory, thats all.

 

engines come down to two things, power and reliability. you can throw cash at both but how much you spend depends on where the dollars go and what you expect. on one side you could make a powerful motor that's low on reliability and also fairly low on cost. a b20 bottom end, vtec head and aggressive cams could produce 220whp and be done for a couple grand all said and done. to make 220whp and have it live under hard track use for an extended period you could spend as much on a dart block as your entire b20 build cost to assemble. it all comes down to the buyers goal. in my opinion the stock gsr and type r engines are the best dollar meets reliability value. the jdm itr makes 200 crank hp and costs 2500 shipped to get one in good condition. no tune is required and a $100 p73 ecu will run it with good results. that's a total of 2600 tuned. you could make a b20 more powerful for the same money but it won't have near the reliability. the whole deal is an individual choice on what matters more.

 

So I guess everybody that drag race in the outlaw class, all motor class, and sfwd class should swap out there vtec motors for non vtec motors and then they will be much faster