Very well said!!! I'm glad that you viewed it as an open and informative discussion. I just hope that others understand that and do not view it as an argument.


Thanks for the background information. It defenitely adds credibility and validity to your points.


Yes, this is correct. If a force is applied on an object, the object will exert and equal force in the opposite direction. So in this sense you can say that it is reacting.


I still do not agree with this statement. The function of a tie bar/strut bar (upper or lower) is to prevent chassis flex. The upper prevents flexing between the shock towers. The lower prevents flexing between the lower suspension mounting points. The function of a swaybar, as described in the Grass Roots Motorsports article, is "Put simply, an anti-roll bar is a U-shaped metal bar that links both wheels on the same axle to the chassis. Essentially, the ends of the bar are connected to the suspension while the center of the bar is connected to the body of the car. In order for body roll to occur, the suspension on the outside edge of the car must compress while the suspension on the inside edge simultaneously extends. However, since the anti-roll bar is attached to both wheels, such movement is only possible if the metal bar is allowed to twist. (One side of the bar must twist upward while the other twists downward.) So the bar's torsional stiffness-or resistance to twist-determines its ability to reduce body roll. Less twisting of the bar results in less movement into jounce and rebound by the opposite ends of the suspension-which results in less body roll."


This is true. The chart which I referred to is just a general guideline. It cannot tell you by how much to increase the rear spring rate to reduce understeer. One thing to note about the chart is that you do not see where there is any reference to strut tower/tie bars. That is, there is not a column which says to add front or rear strut tower bar to affect understeer or oversteer. This is because strut tower bars are not used as a suspension tuning device. They are used for chassis tuning. So when you think of suspension tuning, think swaybars. When you think of chassis tuning, think strut tower bars.


Now if everyones head wasn't hurting before, there is a good chance that it is now

 

Yeah..it does hurt, but in good way! There is tons of information in this thread! In the end, I believe my view on the way a sway bar works is in agreement with BSQ's. The "twisting" of the bar is what makes it "active". Just my .02.......

 

/brain explodes
Thanks for all the input. I have a whole new understanding (and migrane)
Sooooo... I will have to go back later and re-read everything to figure out what is best for me.
What I want to get rid of is Tire hop and having my whole car slide when i go into a turn. Most of the roads here are a little curvey, and want to be able to handle them well.

Thanks again, am going to get a tylenol.

 

Just go and buy one. It'll do something for ya.

 

Brett,
my shocks are set to 4 all the way around. My tires at 32 psi all the way around. Yes I have stock Michelins.
how should I tune my suspension and tire pressure to increase understeer? I was thinking changing my back shocks to 3 but not sure about tire pressure. thanks.
mm

 

I would recommend changing the rear shocks to 3 or even possibly 2. On the tire pressures, I would recommend upping the pressure to 33-34 psi on the rear tires. Try making these adjustments and see how the car feels. If the car still feels like it want to oversteer at the limit, the add another 1-2 psi to the rear tires. HTH, let me know if this improved your handling.

 

when u go to buy a swaybar, only get the rear one and get a skunk 2 or ITR swaybar I have heard nothing but good responce for these setups!

 

It's nice to see a civilized, informative, and intelligent discussion in this thread. From my point of view both of you make sense. I can see allenp, why you say that they are similar devices because of the fact that the chassis itself flexes too. What you're saying makes perfect sense. However, I have to agree with what BSQ is saying. The simple fact that the swaybar is attached to the suspension which is supposed to move as opposed to the chassis which in a perfect world should not move makes all the difference. Like everyone else though, I'm ready and willing to learn so I'm all ears to anything all you guys have to say.

Lildrgn, I think simply replacing your tires would solve your problem with the sliding but I suppose you already know that. About the wheel hop issue, have you looked into the Z10 radius arm kit? I have no personal experience with it myself but from what I've read, it seems to be very promising.

edit: typo


[Modified by agent87, 3:05 AM 10/5/2001]

 

Okay, cool, it seems like everyone's on the same page now.. We don't need to debate semantics anymore!

Yes, there is a difference between chassis and suspension tuning. And tie bars are for chassis tuning, sway bars for suspension. But if you break it down to the bare theory, it is still the same idea.

Plus, there's not much point in doing suspension tuning if your chassis is made of spaghetti! But fortunately, Honda provides us with one of the stronger chassis out there. Not that tie bars don't help...

Okay... I think we've about wrapped this topic up...

 

where can i get the beaks or bsq kit

 

You can get my BSQ mounting kit at http://www.geocities.com/bretq/mounting_kit.html

 

I know everyone is recommending the ITR, comptech, and skunk2 bar but I think you should heed allenp's warning, especially since you have an LS. The stiff bars mentioned above give a stong enough tendency to oversteer on a GSR but it will be even more on an LS because the LS only has a 22mm front roll-bar vs the GSR's 24mm front roll-bar.

I personally am going to get the ST rear bar because:

1)19mm
2)much cheaper than Neuspeed
3)heard it is direct bolt-on no modifications

 

I have read a lot off comments from people lately saying that by upgrading to a larger rear swaybar, such as the Type-R or Comptech, that this will cause oversteer. But, I can honestly say that I have NEVER experienced oversteer on the street in the 3.5+ years that I have had my Type-R rear swaybar installed. And I have honestly tried to get my car to oversteer, just to see if I could get it to happen, and I couldn't make it happen. I'm also sure that many of you have heard that the Integra Type-R is the most balance front wheel drive car there is. And a majority of the reason for that balance is because of the combination of the 24mm front swaybar and 22mm rear swaybar. Now I'm not saying that there isn't a possibility that oversteer might happen, but I think that the possibility is very slim. Remember there are other thing which affect handling (eg. tire pressure, shock settings, spring rates, tires, etc.) besides swaybars. Also, if you do upgrade any suspension component the car is going to behave differently, so I recommend "relearning" how you car behaves and reacts after an upgrade before taking it to the "limit'.

One last note, all 2000-2001 Integras have 24mm front swaybars, prior to that RS and LS had a 22mm.