tractoy

Well, the car was great. I only drove at about 7/10ths at most all day, due to new setup and being the first time I have been back on the track in 7 months. The turn in was awsome with the new suspension and cage mods. Really took most of the "push" out of the car. Had one little off road excursion, blew 9 and elected to drive through the grass for a bit, but it was harmless.

It was a largely uneventfull day minus an M3 rolling up the hill at turn three. Pancakeville. The word in the pits was "nobody will come out of that car alive. However, there must have been just enough room for the instructor, Shawn, and the driver to skooch down as the roof came in on them. Group 2 "Advanced" should have cages. Period. That was a bit too close for comfort. I was glad to hear that Shawn was ok, I got him into instructing... sorry Shawn.

A couple of other bent cars, on 740IL backed into the wall and scraped the paint and a 911RS America spun down the shute into the wall trying to catch an instructor in a basically stock 87' Jetta. Ego wrecked his car. Happens every time. Car needs some work, but everyone was ok.

In all a fun day. I instructed for Larry, from this board in a Type R. He did fine. By the third session he was pretty confident. If your on the board Larry, how did your fourth session go?

Chris


[Modified by 98type-r, 5:41 AM 6/24/2001]

Crack Monkey

Most of the accidents in three that I've seen are race groups on the first lap. There is lots of space and if you run out of room at the exit, you can just go straight through the gravel - the track bends back towards you before station 4. It's a bumpy ride, but there is no need to get back on track fast. It's really a fun corner - since it's on camber, it kinda sucks you around in a slight four wheel drift. Also, if the rear end steps out, just let it go - the car will usually spin to the inside of the turn, where there is more room and less chance of rolling the car.

Speaking of which, i tried turn three flat out in my last session. Even with a busted engine, it barely works. And the ride through the gravel is sketchy - there is a large ridge that sends you into the air as you get back to the track surface.


[Modified by Crack Monkey, 6:38 AM 6/25/2001]

Warren

Ouchie, I saw this picture of the M3.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewP...p=50807986&f=0

I didn't realize there was an instructor in there

Warren

gsober

i am a little dissapointed at the track "official's" in regards to the rollover on friday. Chris can back me up on this, no one knew who Shawn was. No one knew who was even in the car. No one knew if there was an instructor even in the car. After 20 mins. or so of not findinf If there were serious injuries, i can understand them withholding info. I asked the guy in charge, who was in the car and he said " i do not know". I know he was telling the truth because i saw his face. His unsureness just made me feel uncomfortable. I have always thought that they do a good job at Summit Point, this just made me feel like the instructors were not important and i know that not to be true.

MaddMatt

That car is as flat as something that is very flat indeed. How in the hell did they not...well...die? Seriously, there's nowhere to go when the roof is flush with the dashboard.

All those that do this sport and not have a roll bar need to click on that link.

Matt

Grumpy

This is PRECISELY why racing seat belts are illegal in street cars on the highway and should never be used without a roll cage while on track.

Street belts allow you to lean over in a rollover. Race belts will hold you upright and your head becomes the rollbar.

tractoy

Yes Greg I agree, I thought Bruce should have at leats know who was in the car. I have been trying to get in touch with Shawn all day with no luck.

Turn three definately can bite you. It bit me... that's where I rolled the R last december. That said I really like turn three all the way through the shute (5) as CM said. They would have been f__ed if they had 5 pts on. At least the seat belts let them scrunch down.

I would have loved to be there over the weekend! But with my 3 month old twin boys, three days at the track in a row are not happening!!!! Glad everyone had fun!

Chris

LIS

> In all a fun day. I instructed for Larry, from this board in a Type R. He did > fine. By the third session he was pretty confident. If your on the board
> Larry, how did your fourth session go?

Hi Chris,

My fourth session was great, but wet! I went out with Bill again, and he was trying to teach me the rain line. I think I was almost as fast driving my fourth session in the rain as I was during my second session with you in the dry. I did manage to spin once in the infamous turn three- to the outside of the track, away from the gravel. I was able to head off-track straight and got back on without a problem. Of course I had to re-pass a few 911's with timid drivers...

Thanks again for the instruction during sessions one and two! I learned a ton about high-speed driving in the Type-R, and about the Summit Point line. I'm still grinning 4 days later from all the fun I had, so I'll be back for another FATT ASAP!

-Larry

Crack Monkey

I've got a quick question for ya'll -

I've seen a lot of FAT cars spin to outside of turn 3. Both instructors and students of all levels. Yet, I rarely see race cars do this - they either catch and spin to the inside (which is safer IMO) or drift into the gravel (but don't spin) and continue on (which is safe and doesn't slow a softly sprung car down much).

Are you trying to pinch the exit when you run out of track? Don't bother, use the gravel. It's bumpy, but safe (safer than chasing a lost cause).

Warren

Spinning to the inside is some scary **** too. I've seen 2 cars end up in trees there. Heard of a couple others.

Warren

KK

Yeah, once I saw a black RX-7 spin to the inside and catch a tree... wasn't too pretty. Another time I saw a black Vette spin to the inside only there were two cars right behind him! One took the inside line and the other ran off into the gravel, flew about a 1 foot off the ground and came back down. I think it was Todd in the white Hybrid/Civic now that I think about it. Luckily no one hit anything that time, but there could have been a potential pile up if the drivers didn't react as well as they did.

Mark

tractoy

The problem with 3 is that most newer drivers do both fatal things: Lift in the corner, and turn in way early. Spinning to the inside only happens if you are late trying to make to sharp a turn. Turning early you tend to spin in a straight line right at the gravel. If you go in sideways, over you go. If you think you are too fast, and lift or even worse brake, the back end comes out, and gets parallel to the gravel and again drifting into the gravel sideways, over you go.

Racers and experienced drivers don't lift and tend to push it in to deep to try and get the faster exit speed. They spin inside or tend to drift evenly out, run out of track and drive through the top of the gravel. Yes, as CM said, a bit bumpy but not fatal. Unless when you get in the grass you try to save it and get sideways into the trees.

92sleepR

"Ouchie, I saw this picture of the M3"

Oh ****! Two people actually walked away from that!

Mike

CamaroFS34

You forgot "panic if they go off." That's usually how rollovers happen. A guy in an SN95 Mustang was lucky he didn't roll in turn 1 this past weekend at the NASA school when he cranked the steering wheel to the left after he'd gone into the gravel trap at a high rate of speed. If you're going off, realize that going straight into the gravel is a lot safer than going sideways. And turn 3, if you turn in too early, the track comes back to you, so it's not like you have to jerk the wheel to get back on the pavement right away.

Karen

SPiFF

Is that a convertable??!??! I wouldn't think an M3 has that bad structural rigidity!

Warren

Well, if you go straight into the gravel at high speed, and you have ABS, you need to turn the wheel slightly to slow down. Note, you have to be entering STRAIGHT into the gravel, and SLIGHTLY turn the wheel.

Gee, Warren, how do you know this? Don't ask...

Warren

tractoy

M3's are an interesting car. They have great chasis dynamics, but they dont hold together too well in a roll over. That said, just about any car you put hard on the roof will pancake. Now my R did not even touch the bar in the rollover. Hmmmm. My incident at 3 was pretty low speed though.

I generally preach that safety mods and performance mods have to be done at the same time, however, like the R, the M3's are so fast stock that it is easy to have one get away from you. Any group 2 (advanced) driver in an M3 should at least have a 4pt bar, if not a cage. IMO.

gsober

i agree 100%. i think there should be a higher stress on saftey. this is saftey for both the driver and the instructor!!!

SPiFF

They must have gone over real fast. I have seen pics of a couple of driver school roll overs and none were that flat.

tractoy

I have not talked to Shawn yet, but it is easy to be going 80+ at the top of 3 where they lost it. It would be a pretty terrific impact.

Warren

Hey Chris, let us know how Shawn is. I hope all is well with him and the driver.

Warren

KK

I went up to SP late Friday and saw Shawn heading out in his GSR so hopefully he wasn't badly hurt.

Mark

SK1

Hey Fellas,

Shawn here. All is well. Believe it or not, I got a couple of stitches above my left knee, and scrapes on both shins and that's it. I've never felt so lucky before in my life. The reason for such a late response is because I'm currently up in Maine on vacation (that's why I didn't get your message Chris). Mark, I thought that was you driving by.

Jeff, the driver is fine as well. I had it worse than him as far as bodily harm. He has a few bruises.

We entered 3 early and hot. When Jeff tied to correct the car placement, the back end kicked out, over corrected, lifted, and we went toward the trees. I'm not sure if we hit the trees though. All I remember was seeing the trees coming fast (80+ mph), being tossed around violently which disoriented me, and then everything was pitch black. I asked Jeff is he was fine, and then searched for the door handle. I couldn't open the door, we were crammed in the tightest space. I was able to take off my helmet (which cracked in 3 places) to get some air. No roll bar/cage. Bone stock M3.

I believe we hit the base of the trees (decline before the trees/semi ditch) which took off most of the energy, and then the car came over. So the car landing on the roof was the last thing. Man, the whole roof crumpled in. I saw those pics of the M3 and can't believe I'm sitting here writing this. The rescue team lifted the back of the car with the wrecker, put support under the car, and then used the jaws of life to cut us out. We were out of the car in about 5 minutes.

I must say the response team at Summit did a superb job. They were well organized and ready for any situation. As far as no one knowing who was in the car, or who I was, definitely needs to be addressed.

I'm taking this time off to really think over what happened, what could have happened differently, and what I'm doing. Unfortunately, it sometimes takes incidents like this to realize how valuable your life is.

I hope this is something people can look at and take safety precautions sooner rather than later. To realize that this sport is deadly and that you can die. To not be the person who say's "If" or be the unlucky one and not get a second chance. You can't sacrifice safety, no matter what it costs. I you feel you're permanently involved with motor sport, no matter what level, you really should get the safety gear.

Shawn

tractoy

Thank God you are alright! I was really worried not hearing from you. You all were in the trees. I saw the hole you left. Glad to hear that the driver was ok too. I have to admit I feel kinda responsible. I think it was me that suggested the instructing thing.... oops. I may not have mentioned the "student over corrects and lands you upside down in the trees within an inch of your life" thing. Sometime later we will have the staying safe as an instructor conversation. But you need some time first.

I did not see your car, any cage yet? Kind of know what the answer is, or is going to be shortly I guess.

It was really mentally and emotionally tough for me back at the track last Friday first time after my rollover, so if you want to talk... I'm here.

By the way thanks to Greg Sober for covering up what he could of your car to keep some of the water out.

Glad you are ok my friend, i was a little worried that the first time we sat next to each other in the instructors meeting was the last.

Chris

krshultz

Shawn I'm glad you're alright.

And you're right, it makes me stop and think. I'm a relatively new instructor (7 schools? Something like that) and while I recognize the danger of me driving, I sometimes lose sight of the danger involved with me riding along.

This is why I bought a bolt-in cage one month after I did my first track event. I knew I was hooked, and I knew this was a dangerous pasttime.

Anyway, good to see you're OK.